安德鲁·胡伯曼 你必须掌控你的多巴胺 - 中英双语

要点总结

Andrew Huberman 的背景和转变

1. Huberman 的童年过着传统的生活，充满着对生物学的热情。

2. 青春期时父母离异导致他变得叛逆，沉迷于滑板和朋克摇滚文化，疏于学业。

3. 在一次打架事件后，他决定改变自己的人生，开始认真学习。

4. Huberman 找到了将他的热情和强度应用于学术研究的方法，最终在斯坦福大学获得终身教职。

5. 他早期的经历教会了他自律、自我激励以及寻找知识渊博的人的重要性。

神经可塑性和习惯养成

1. Huberman 强调神经可塑性，也就是大脑在任何年龄段都能改变的能力。

2. 改变通常是由恐惧或对失败的强烈渴望驱动的，但对技艺的热爱可以带来最优秀、最有创意的作品。

3. 习惯的养成可以通过创造新的故事和打破旧故事的流畅性来实现。

4. 神经可塑性需要注意力和警觉性，休息和睡眠对大脑的重塑至关重要。

多巴胺、动力和成瘾

1. 多巴胺是动机、追求和奖励的通用“货币”。

2. 过度刺激，例如滥用药物或色情内容，会导致多巴胺峰值，然后是更低的低谷，从而导致对更强刺激的渴望。

3. 追求健康的目标、健康的社交关系以及充足的资源，可以带来更可持续的多巴胺水平和幸福感。

4. 认识你自己，了解你的能量水平、动机和自我调节机制至关重要。

生活建议和策略

1. 每天早上和朋友或家人互发“早上好”短信，这是一种简单但有效的方式，可以建立社交联系和归属感。

2. 非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）或瑜伽休息术可以帮助补充多巴胺水平，改善睡眠和促进学习。

3. 早晨晒太阳可以促进皮质醇的释放，从而改善情绪、注意力和睡眠。

4. 规律的运动和健康的饮食对身体和精神健康至关重要。

5. 找到让你充满热情和动力的活动，但要避免过度刺激和倦怠。

6. 学习如何控制不同状态之间的转换，例如清醒和睡眠、工作和休息。

7. 培养有意义的人际关系，找到值得信赖的朋友，并乐于助人。

色情内容和多巴胺

1. 色情内容，尤其是高强度的色情内容，会导致多巴胺的释放，但长期观看可能会导致脱敏和对更强刺激的渴望。

2. 色情内容成瘾是一个真实存在的问题，尤其是对年轻男性来说，戒断是克服它的关键。

3. 健康的性关系和亲密互动，与色情内容截然不同，需要在现实生活中建立健康的联系。

其他要点

1. Huberman 认为，真正的幸福来自于对所拥有事物的感激，以及对未来美好事物的期待。

2. 他强调了“同情观察者”的概念，也就是从一个超然的视角来观察我们的思想和情绪，并做出明智的选择。

3. 他分享了自己在人际关系方面的挣扎和成长，以及他如何逐渐意识到健康的社交关系的重要性。

安德鲁·胡伯曼 你必须掌控你的多巴胺 - 中英双语全文翻译

Steven: Andrew, at the very heart of what you do, at the very, very heart, if I if I looked at all that you’ve produced, and I had to encapsulate it into just one or two sentences that encapsulates your mission statement, what would that be?

史蒂文: 安德鲁，在你所做的一切的核心，最最核心的部分，如果我仔细研究你所有的作品，并将其概括成一两句话来描述你的使命，那会是什么？

Andrew: I want to share the beauty and utility of biology. I want people to understand how incredible the human body and brain are, and how even a small understanding of the underlying mechanisms, about how we interact with light or temperature, exercise, thoughts, emotions, etc., how that can impact our health in really powerful ways.

安德鲁: 我想与大家分享生物学的美丽和实用性。我希望人们能够明白，人体和大脑是多么奇妙，即使只是对一些基本机制的简单了解，例如我们如何与光线、温度、运动、思想、情绪等相互作用，都能够对我们的健康产生非常大的影响。

Steven: You have become a cultural phenomenon because of the information that you’ve shared. In your view, why and how has that happened? I guess maybe most importantly, why has that happened? What is it that you’ve kind of catered to that was absent in people’s understanding of themselves?

史蒂文: 你已经成为了一种文化现象，这都归功于你分享的信息。在你看来，这是为什么？它是如何发生的？我认为也许最重要的是，为什么会出现这种情况？你提供了哪些人们原本对自己缺乏了解的信息？

Andrew: Well, I think people are intensely curious about themselves, meaning our species, why we feel the way we feel, why other people feel and act the way they do. And I think most everybody, I like to think, is deeply interested in how to be the best version of themselves. And I think what I’ve done is I’ve provided a lens into all of that, that, through biology, through Neuroscience in particular, but also I’m a practitioner. So, since I was pretty young, I’ve been actively involved in sports and psychology and interested in what one can do, in some cases take things to avoid, in order to be the best version of oneself. And so, um, I’m an academic, right? I have a laboratory, and I’m a tenured faculty member at Stanford, although I should mention that I’ve shrunk my laboratory considerably in the last year or so. But you, I’ve done experiments on animal models on humans, and human clinical trials. So, I have the understanding and expertise of a of a research scientist. And at the same time, I think very deeply about how to translate the information in these peer-reviewed papers, how to translate the information in the fields of science and medicine, into actionable what we call protocols. And and I do my best to, um, distill things down into, uh, you know, actionable things. Um, but I’m not a big believer in dumbing things down. I decided to go the opposite way. Rather than give little snippets, um, 90-second videos, we include those, but rather I decided to go for full 1 to 3-hour, maybe even 4-hour lectures on a topic, because I believe, and I’m not the first to say it, that people have, um, near infinite ability to learn if they are told things in a way that’s clear. So, believe that people want to understand, they can understand, and it doesn’t require decorating things in a lot of complicated language. Sometimes we need to include some complicated language, just because that’s the way science and medicine are, and that people are willing to learn that and carry that along. And once they understand how they work a little bit better, you arm them with a little bit of knowledge, then really, they’re just off to the races, and the the rest takes care of itself.

安德鲁: 我认为人们对自身，也就是对我们人类这个物种，充满了好奇心，例如我们为什么会有这样的感觉，为什么其他人会有那样的感受和行为。我认为大多数人，或者说我更愿意相信，都渴望成为最好的自己。而我所做的，就是通过生物学，尤其是神经科学，为人们提供了一种了解这一切的视角。同时，我也是一名实践者，从很小的时候起，我就积极参与体育运动和心理学研究，并对一个人可以做什么、在某些情况下应该避免什么，以成为最好的自己很感兴趣。我是一名学者，在斯坦福大学拥有一个实验室，也是一名终身教职员工，尽管我的实验室规模在过去一年左右的时间里大幅缩减了。我曾在动物模型、人类以及人体临床试验中进行过实验，所以，我具备一名研究科学家的理解力和专业知识。与此同时，我也一直在深入思考，如何将同行评审论文中的信息，如何将科学和医学领域的信息，转化为可操作的方案。我尽我所能，将这些信息提炼成可操作的步骤。但我并不赞成将知识过度简化。我选择反其道而行之，与其提供一些简短的片段，例如 90 秒的视频，虽然我们也会制作这些内容，但我更倾向于就一个主题进行完整的 1 到 3 个小时，甚至 4 个小时的讲座。因为我相信，人们拥有近乎无限的学习能力，只要信息以清晰的方式传达给他们。我相信，人们渴望理解，并且他们有能力理解，这并不需要使用大量复杂的语言。当然，有时我们需要使用一些复杂的语言，因为科学和医学就是这样，人们愿意学习并理解这些语言。一旦他们对事物的运作方式有了更深入的了解，你只需要为他们提供一点知识，他们就能够自己去探索，剩下的事情就会自然而然地发生。

Steven: I may, a couple of times today, just ask you to explain something to me in more simpler terms, because I don’t have any fundamental understanding of of science. So, um, much of my objective is just to, if if is just to be completely honest, if I don’t understand something, because I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening that also probably don’t understand something. One of the things that was most surprising to me about you was your background. And I think the interesting thing about your background, and where you came from, and the the struggles you faced, and in contrast to the man that sits in front of me today, is it, I think, it speaks to one of the fundamental points of curiosity that I have about your work, which is it’s all well and good knowing protocols, but there’s something else required to be able to pursue them. Now, people say that this is discipline or motivation or whatever it might be. But, when I looked at your background, and where you’ve come from, it wasn’t a straight line. There’s no, there’s an element of transformation that’s gone on there, there’s there’s almost the early Andrew Huberman, who I never would have guessed would have been the man that is, is almost unrecognizable from the man sat in front of me today. And then there’s the man sat in front of me today. And the reason I’m so fascinated by that, is because if I can understand how you went from that Andrew Huberman to this one, it gives me, it liberates me from the excuses that I won’t be able to pursue your protocols.

史蒂文: 我今天可能会多次请你用更简单的方式向我解释一些事情，因为我缺乏对科学的基本了解。我的目标是，坦诚地说，如果我不理解某些内容，我相信有很多听众可能也不理解。你最让我惊讶的事情之一是你的个人经历。你的过往，你的出身，你所面临的困境，以及与今天坐在我面前的你形成的鲜明对比，我认为，这正是我对你工作感到好奇的关键所在：仅仅了解方案是不够的，还需要其他的东西才能执行它们。有人说这是自律，有人说是动力，等等。但当我回顾你的过往，你的出身，我发现你的成长之路并非一帆风顺。你的经历中包含着转变的元素，早期的你与今天坐在我面前的你简直判若两人。我之所以如此着迷，是因为如果我能理解你是如何从过去的你转变为现在的你，我就能摆脱那些阻碍我执行你方案的借口。

Andrew: Now, yeah, well, certainly, uh, there’s been a lot of adventure and transformation, certainly some hardship. Listen, I I’ll be the first to say you know my life has been easier than it has been for others, and harder than it has been for others, right? So, I’m not trying to plant a flag as having had the hardest or the easiest life. I only know, um, what’s my experience, right? So, all I’ve got is my experience, my knowledge, and my words, uh, to convey that. But yeah, it was not a linear path. I would say the kind of key milestones along the way, and the the the relevant pieces are, for as long as I can remember, I’ve always had an intense curiosity, and an intense desire for adventure.

安德鲁: 是的，我的经历中充满了冒险和转变，当然也有一些艰辛。我的生活比有些人更容易，也比有些人更艰难。我并不想标榜自己的人生是最艰难或最轻松的，我只了解我自己的经历。我所拥有的，只是我的经历、我的知识和我的语言来表达这些。我的成长之路并非一帆风顺。我认为，一路走来的关键节点和重要部分是，在我的记忆中，我一直对世界充满好奇，并且渴望冒险。

Um, so, I want to learn, and I want to learn firsthand. I also suppose I’ve always had an intensity. Like I I’ve, um, been told since I was a young kid, you know I I sort of like forward leaning a little bit, uh you know forward center of mass, so to speak. Um, but yeah, my childhood, on the one hand, was very conventional and and very sweet in the sense that, you know, I had two parents. My dad’s actually a scientist, he’s a theoretical physicist by training. He’s Argentine, uh but then did his graduate training in the United States. My mother’s, uh, a writer and she was a teacher. She didn’t work a whole lot when we were kids, she was mostly focused on raising us. And my childhood, to my memory, was marked by, you know, dinners together at the table. I was very, very interested in all things biology, in particular fish. So, all things aquaria, birds, anything, you know, tropical birds. I I would learn all about them, learn about fish. I would then lecture about these things in class on Monday as a way to try, the teachers to try and get me to not talk to students around me, because I’d be telling them about it otherwise. So, I’ve been giving little lectures since I was a kid. And and then, I suppose as I matured, um, so to speak, um, you know around adolescence, my parents split up. It was a very high conflict divorce. Um, and that sent me, uh, in the direction of more kind of a wilder foraging, let’s call it that. I was a bit feral. Um, just the the circumstance led to situation where I was seeking out sports and friends for which there wasn’t any parental involvement. So, for me, me, the immediate attraction was to skateboarding and punk rock culture. And so, I was very fortunate that I was drawn into skateboarding and punk rock culture in the ear, late ’80s early ’90s. I’m 49 now, or almost 49. And at that time, that was a very nascent culture. There was no X Games, there were no major sponsors that sort of thing. And so, there were all these, not parentless, but rather feral kids. Some were parentless. And I got to be exposed to some incredible skateboarding. And I was not a particularly good skateboarder, but certainly had the drive to try and do it. I kept hurting myself. So, that was actually an important event. I kept, you know, hurting my body, trying to push myself to get really good. Friends of mine were getting sponsored. Close friend of mine got picked up as a pro while we were in high school. We were traveling, going to contest, what you probably may have noticed is there wasn’t a lot of attending school. So, I don’t recommend this to young people. Stay in school at least at the early stage, get that basic education while your brain is still hyperplastic. But you know I was exposed to, and fortunately did not partake in, a lot of drugs and violence, but I saw that. I also saw a lot of incredible skateboarding. Some of these people went on to, um, start huge companies and do incredible things in the realm of action sports. So, like DC, um, I know the guys that started that, Danny Way, Colin McKay, you know, like I knew at that time. Um, I knew of, I wasn’t close with, but you know, Tony Hawk, watched his ascent, right? He was a few years ahead of me. Um, but I would attend contest, skate and contest. So, I was in this world where it was all DIY, it was all self-created.

嗯，我想学习，并且想亲身体验学习的过程。我认为我一直是一个充满激情的人。从我很小的时候起，就有人告诉我，我总是充满活力，积极进取。我的童年一方面非常传统，也非常温馨，我拥有父母双全的家庭。我的父亲是一名科学家，他是一名训练有素的理论物理学家，来自阿根廷，后来在美国接受了研究生教育。我的母亲是一名作家，也曾是一名教师。在我们小的时候，她很少工作，把大部分精力都放在了抚养我们上。在我的记忆中，我的童年充满了温馨的家庭聚餐。我对所有与生物学相关的事物都非常感兴趣，尤其是鱼类。我对所有与水族馆、鸟类相关的事物，尤其是热带鸟类，都充满好奇。我会学习关于它们的一切，学习关于鱼类的一切，然后在星期一的课堂上向同学们讲述这些知识。老师们为了让我不要在课堂上与周围的同学说话，就让我在课堂上给大家讲解这些知识，否则我会一直和同学们聊个不停。所以，我从小就喜欢给大家做一些小型的讲座。随着我逐渐长大，进入青春期后，我的父母离婚了。那是一场充满冲突的离婚，这让我开始寻找一种更加自由的生活方式。我变得有些叛逆，我开始寻找那些没有父母参与的体育运动和朋友。我立刻被滑板和朋克摇滚文化所吸引。我很幸运，在 80 年代末 90 年代初接触到了滑板和朋克摇滚文化。我现在已经 49 岁了，或者说快 49 岁了。在那个时候，滑板和朋克摇滚文化还处于萌芽阶段，没有极限运动会，也没有大型赞助商。我身边都是一些叛逆的年轻人，有些甚至没有父母。我开始接触到一些令人难以置信的滑板技巧。我并不是一个特别出色的滑板运动员，但我始终充满动力，想要尝试并做到最好。我经常受伤，但这对我来说是一个重要的经历。我不断地挑战自己的身体极限，想要变得更加出色。我的朋友们获得了赞助，我的一位好友在我们读高中时就成为了一名职业滑板运动员。我们四处旅行，参加比赛，你可能已经注意到了，我们很少去上学。我并不建议现在的年轻人这样做。至少在早期阶段，要坚持上学，在你大脑还处于高度可塑性的时候，接受基础教育。我接触到了毒品和暴力，幸运的是我并没有参与其中，但我亲眼目睹了这些。我也见识了许多令人惊叹的滑板技巧。这些人中的一些人后来创办了大型公司，在极限运动领域取得了巨大的成功。例如 DC 公司，我认识它的创始人，丹尼·韦和科林·麦凯。我也知道托尼·霍克，看着他一步步走向成功。他比我大几岁，但我经常参加比赛，在比赛中展现我的滑板技巧。我身处一个完全由自己创造的 DIY 世界。

Now, at some point I got a girlfriend, and um, got into other things, um, and kind of left skateboarding. Um, thought I might be a firefighter for a little while. I was always very physical.

后来，我交了一个女朋友，开始尝试其他事情，慢慢地离开了滑板运动。我曾想过要成为一名消防员，我一直都很喜欢运动。

Steven: What age is this?

史蒂文: 你那时多大？

Andrew: Um, so I was 16 when I got my first girlfriend, and um, I wasn’t doing well in skateboarding. I kept breaking my foot. Um, people were moving on without me. That was just the nature of it. I was in love with her, wanted to spend time with her, and so I thought, well I’m not really doing well in school. I’m not really attending school, and I’ll need to work and take care of us. You know, I was really thinking kind of like an adult at that point, terms of what I would do. And so, I thought I’d get into the fire service. So, I started trying to strengthen my body. I started doing resistance training. Keep in mind back then, the only people that lifted weights were, you know, pre-season American football players, people going to the military, and bodybuilders. And I wasn’t interested in any of those three things, but I started doing resist resistance training, um, and realiz realized, wow, like this is a really powerful tool. I can make my body stronger through work. I could, I couldn’t do a single pull-up when I started. I was always pretty skinny. I, you know, shot up, uh, a full foot in height, but was very, very skinny, you know, at that point. And um, within, you know, a summer, I could do pull-ups. I could do these things. I thought, wow, like there’s this remarkable relationship between doing physical effort, and kind of ability or outcome. And then I also started running a lot. For whatever reason, I ran cross country my senior year of high school school. And also there, I felt like there was a direct relationship between effort and outcome. If I ran further, then the next time I could run even further. If my lungs burned on a hill run, well then the next time I could do that hill without my lungs burning. Whereas, in skateboarding, no matter how hard I seem to try, I just couldn’t match the level of effort with the outcome. So, it was from that point forward, that you know 16 years old forward, that I made running and resistance training just part of my regular weekly schedule. Um, what ended up happening was she went off to college. I ended up just basically living in my car or her dorm room while she was off at college. She was a year ahead of me, and I realized I wanted to be near her. So, I eventually I applied to college, and somehow got in.

安德鲁: 嗯，我16岁的时候交了第一个女朋友。那时我的滑板技术并不理想，反复摔断脚，周围的人在进步，而我却停滞不前，这是事实。我深深爱着她，想和她在一起，于是我开始思考，我在学校表现不好，也不怎么上课，我得工作来养活我们。当时我的思考方式已经很像一个成年人了，考虑自己未来该做些什么。所以我决定加入消防队。于是我开始锻炼身体，进行阻力训练。要知道，当时只有季前训练的橄榄球运动员、准备参军的人和健美运动员才会进行举重训练，但我对这三者都没有兴趣。不过，我开始进行阻力训练，并意识到这是一个非常强大的工具。通过锻炼我能够让自己的身体更加强壮。我刚开始时连一个引体向上都做不了。我一直很瘦，你知道，我的身高突然猛增了一英尺，但那时我依旧非常瘦弱。嗯，在一个夏天里，我就能够做引体向上了。我意识到，身体的努力与能力或结果之间有着一种奇妙的关系。后来我还开始跑步。不管出于什么原因，我在高中的最后一年参加了越野跑比赛。在那时，我也感觉到努力和结果之间存在直接关系。如果我跑得更远，那么下次我还能跑得更远。如果我的肺在爬坡时感觉火烧火燎，那么下次我就能不那么辛苦地完成这个坡。相比之下，在滑板运动中，无论我多么努力，似乎都无法让努力与结果成正比。所以，从那时起，从16岁起，我就把跑步和阻力训练作为我每周的常规活动。嗯，后来她去了大学，我几乎是在我的车里或她的宿舍里度过的时间。她比我早一年去上大学，我意识到我也想靠近她。于是我申请了大学，并且不知怎么的，居然被录取了。

By the end of my freshman year, I had been getting in multiple fights. So, I still had that kind of wildness from the world I was previously in. I was getting into physical altercations. I was never into drugs or alcohol. That was, for forunate, I don’t have a propensity to be addicted to those things, but my life really wasn’t in order. And it was really, it was actually nearly 30 years ago to the day, it was July 4th, 1994. I went to a barbecue. I got into an altercation with a bunch of people that were robbing the house that we were at. Um, and and by the way, there’s sort of a little tangent side story. One of my, um, friends in college, we weren’t super close, but my girlfriend at the time had lived with the now wife of Jack Johnson, the musician. So, Jack recalls that party. We have other friends from that party that was kind of a a meaningful day for me, because I got into this altercation. Everything turned out okay. Um, in the sense that, you know, we got our belongings back, no one was badly hurt. But, I remember going back to the place where I was staying at that time, and thinking to myself, okay, this is bad, right? Um, you know like 19 years old, or I guess it was just shy of of of 18, I am not doing well in school. My freshman year was a disaster where I went to college. I don’t think I flunked out, but it it just wasn’t really attending class. I wasn’t doing well. I’m getting in physical altercations. I’m working at this little bagel shop, delivering bagels. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not much of a future in it for me. Um, I didn’t end up going to the fire service. I didn’t end up a professional athlete. I thought, like, what am I going to do with, like, what am I going to do, right? Because the story of whatever happened to me, prior to that was kind of meaningless unless I made something of myself. So, that day, I actually wrote myself and my parents a letter, saying that I was going to turn my life around. And I actually still have this letter, my mother still has this letter. And what I decided to do was to take a leave of absence from university. I didn’t drop out. A leave of absence allows you the option to go back. I moved home, and I worked. So, I was a busboy at a little restaurant in town where I grew up. And I still continue to run, and do resistance training, you know, three times a week each or so. And I went to Community College, which is, um, typically where kids who can’t afford to go to university, or get to that, just stay back for whatever reason. It’s a wonderful aspect of the the, um, educational system in California still. And I made learning, and filling my mind with formal rigorous coursework-based knowledge, my absolute mission.

大学一年级结束的时候，我已经打了好几架了。我仍然保留着过去那种叛逆的性格，经常卷入肢体冲突。我从不碰毒品和酒精，幸运的是，我没有对这些东西上瘾的倾向，但我的生活确实一团糟。那是在将近 30 年前的 7 月 4 日，我去参加了一个烧烤派对，结果和一群试图在我们所在房子里抢劫的人发生了争吵。对了，这里还有一个插曲。我大学里的一位朋友，我们关系并不是很亲密，但他当时的女朋友与音乐家杰克·约翰逊现在的妻子住在一起。所以，杰克也记得那次聚会。我们还有其他朋友也参加了那次聚会，那对我来说是一个意义非凡的日子，因为我卷入了这场争吵。幸运的是，一切都平安无事。我们拿回了自己的东西，没有人受重伤。但我记得，当我回到当时住的地方时，我心想，这样下去可不行。那时我 19 岁，或者说快 19 岁了，我在学校的表现很差，我的大学一年级简直是一场灾难。我并没有被学校开除，但我几乎没有去上过课，我的成绩也很糟糕。我经常与人发生肢体冲突，我当时在一家小面包店工作，送面包。这份工作本身并没有什么问题，但我看不到未来。我最终没有去消防部门工作，也没有成为一名职业运动员。我想，我到底要做什么呢？在我看来，如果我不能有所成就，我过去所有的经历都毫无意义。所以，在那天，我给自己和我的父母写了一封信，告诉他们我要改变我的生活。我仍然保留着那封信，我的母亲也保留着那封信。我决定从大学休学一段时间，我并没有退学，因为休学后我还可以选择回到学校。我搬回了家，开始工作。我成为了一名餐馆服务生，仍然坚持跑步和阻力训练，每周大约三次。我去了社区大学，那里通常是那些负担不起大学学费，或者因为其他原因而留级的孩子去的地方。社区大学是加州教育体系中一个非常好的组成部分。我把学习知识，用正式、严格的课程知识充实我的头脑，作为我人生的首要任务。

Now, I didn’t care if I liked it. I just, it’s like I’m going to trust my ability to learn, because I could tell you a lot about tropical fish, skateboarding, punk rock music, a fair amount about physical training at that point. I sought out the right people. This has always been something I’ve been good at, is seeking out the right people with knowledge. So, I got great knowledge from the late Mike Mentzer, who had trained Dorian Yates. Um, I was reading every book I could on physical fitness and rehabilitation, trying to get my body strong. Um, never wanted to be big. You know, I was always interested in being strong, and being able to run far and fast. That was always a goal, like a capability. I I’ve not been one of the, um, people to like really care about like hypertrophy. That wasn’t something that mattered to me. If some came along as a consequence of training, great. But it was more about a a capability to do things. So, at that point, I just became a voracious learner. I took every bit of energy that I had applied to these other areas, and put them into learning math, science, art history, English literature, whatever, you know, coursework was thrown at me. And then, after a year of that, went back to university, lived alone in a studio apartment, and basically for the remaining portion of university, all I did was study, work out, hang out with my girlfriend, run, listen to, at that time, like early ’90s punk rock music, which is still a wonderful genre. So, mainly like Rancid, Operation Ivy, Bob Dylan. Always love Bob Dylan, classical music when I study. And that was it. I didn’t do anything else. And at that point, I started getting straight As. People didn’t recognize me. They’re like, “Aren’t you the guy from freshman year, that was getting in all these fights?” I will admit that I wasn’t, um, completely devoid of of, uh, the typical college, um, phenotype. Once a month, I would allow myself to go out to a party. And I’d party once a month, but stayed away from drugs. Was never, never my thing. And, um, so, drank, which you know eventually I realized wasn’t my thing either. But, I was just completely committed. So, I graduated university with honors. I went to graduate school, did a Master’s up at, uh, UC Berkeley. Um, then did my PhD. Did my postdoc at Stanford, and then eventually got a laboratory. Um, first at UC San Diego, excellent Neuroscience program, eventually was recruited to Stanford, uh, with tenure. And all along, maintaining physical fitness in the background, focusing very heavily on doing primary research, meaning making discoveries in Neuroscience, and publishing papers.

我不在乎自己是否喜欢这些课程，我只是相信自己有能力学好它们。因为在那个时候，我可以跟你谈论很多关于热带鱼、滑板、朋克摇滚音乐以及体能训练的知识。我找到了合适的老师，我一直都擅长找到那些知识渊博的人。我从已故的迈克·门泽那里学到了很多知识，他曾经训练过多里安·耶茨。我阅读了所有我能找到的关于健身和康复的书籍，努力让自己变得强壮。我并不想练成大块头，我只是想让自己变得强壮，能够跑得更快更远，这对我来说是一种能力的体现。我并不追求肌肉的增长，如果训练的结果是肌肉增长，那也无妨，但我更注重的是提升自己的能力。从那时起，我变成了一个如饥似渴的学习者。我把过去用于其他领域的精力，全部投入到学习数学、科学、艺术史、英语文学等各种课程中。经过一年的努力，我回到了大学，独自住在一间单间公寓里。在剩下的大学时光里，我几乎把所有时间都花在了学习、锻炼、陪伴女朋友、跑步和听音乐上。我喜欢 90 年代早期的朋克摇滚音乐，它至今仍是我最爱的音乐类型之一。我最喜欢的乐队是 Rancid、Operation Ivy 和鲍勃·迪伦。我一直都很喜欢鲍勃·迪伦，在学习的时候我会听古典音乐。我的生活非常简单，除了学习和锻炼，几乎没有其他的活动。我的成绩开始突飞猛进，所有都拿到了 A。人们几乎认不出我来了，他们会问：“你不是大一的时候那个经常打架的人吗？”我承认，我并没有完全摆脱大学生的典型生活方式。我每个月会允许自己出去参加一次派对，但我会远离毒品，那从来都不是我感兴趣的东西。我也会喝酒，但最终我意识到那也不适合我。我只是全身心地投入到学习中，最终以优异的成绩从大学毕业。之后我继续读研究生，在加州大学伯克利分校获得了硕士学位，然后获得了博士学位。我在斯坦福大学完成了博士后研究，并最终拥有了自己的实验室。我的

And then in 2019, I decided to start posting science on Instagram. Just really nerdy stuff. Um, no protocols, just telling people about sunlight and the relationship to the eye, dopamine and ex. I just enjoyed talking about it, just like I did when I was a little kid, telling people about tropical fish. And in 2020, my plan was to release a book. So, I got a, I, a PR guy. His name is Rob Moore. He’s now a close friend of mine. And we were talking about how we would, I don’t know, maybe go on podcast, or do something of that sort, when the book came out. And then, the pandemic hit. And I said, “You know what, let’s pause the book.” And he said, “Well, just maybe go on podcast.” So, that year, 2020, I went on, I think, somewhere between 20 and 30 podcasts. No book, no website, no nothing, just like talking science, and delighted in that. And then, January 2021, I got a little place, um, in a little, uh, kind of canyon region of Los Angeles, a little sabbatical like, uh, retreat. And, um, set up some cameras. My bulldog, Costello there. Rob Moore became my podcast producer. And on January 1st, more or less, we launched the Huberman Lab podcast, where now I still just blab about stuff that I find interesting, and that I think can be useful to people. So, that’s the kind of, that’s the arc. And as I tell all this, I also just want to make sure that people know that it sounds like this magnificent arc, but along the way, there were absolutely times when I thought, “Oh, my, like, what am I going to do? Like, this is working, but this isn’t working.” And my life, at times, became very lopsided. I focused mainly on work and research. Um, you know, I’m 49 years old now, I’ve had some wonderful relationships across my life, but I opted to delay on marriage and family as a way to, uh, well it wasn’t the intention, but as a way to really just continue to pour my energy into the things that I was most passionate about. So, there’s always sacrifice. There were, you know, sadly I’ve lost a lot of friends along the way, to some to drugs and alcohol, suicide, depression, and so on. Um, others to just unfortunate consequences or age. But, the, um, I think the major themes have been, I just simply can’t pull myself off a desire to learn and adventure through a particular space. And then, once I learn things, and as I learn things, I can’t seem to help but just tell everybody about it. You know, provided there’s somebody there to listen, then I’m eager to share what what I learn.

2019 年，我决定开始在 Instagram 上发布一些关于科学的内容，只是一些非常专业的东西。没有方案，只是跟大家分享一些关于阳光与眼睛的关系、多巴胺等等的知识。我很享受与大家分享这些知识，就像我小时候喜欢跟大家分享关于热带鱼的知识一样。2020 年，我原本计划出版一本书。我找了一个公关人员，他的名字叫罗布·摩尔，他现在是我的好朋友。我们当时在讨论如何宣传这本书，例如参加播客节目等等。后来，新冠疫情爆发了。我说：“我们先暂停出书吧。”他说：“嗯，也许可以先去参加一些播客节目。”所以在 2020 年，我参加了大约 20 到 30 个播客节目。我没有出书，也没有建立网站，只是单纯地与大家分享科学知识，并且乐在其中。2021 年 1 月，我在洛杉矶的一个峡谷地区租了一个小房子，作为我的休假 retreat。我安装了一些摄像设备，我的斗牛犬科斯特洛也陪伴着我。罗布·摩尔成为了我的播客制作人。我们在 1 月 1 日左右推出了 Huberman 实验室播客，现在我仍然会在节目中分享一些我觉得有趣并且对大家有用的知识。这就是我的人生轨迹。当我讲述这些的时候，我希望大家明白，我的成功之路并非一帆风顺。在这一路上，我经历过许多迷茫和困惑，我的生活也曾一度失衡，我把大部分精力都投入到了工作和研究中。我现在 49 岁了，我曾经拥有过一些美好的爱情，但我选择推迟婚姻和家庭，并不是因为我不想结婚生子，而是因为我希望把更多的精力投入到我热爱的事业中。人生总是充满着取舍。可悲的是，我失去过很多朋友，有些人死于毒品和酒精，有些人自杀，有些人患上了抑郁症。其他人则是因为各种不幸的遭遇，或者 simply 因为年龄的增长而离开了这个世界。但我始终无法放弃对学习的渴望，也无法停止探索的脚步。一旦我学到了新的知识，我就会迫不及待地想要与大家分享。只要有人愿意听，我就渴望分享我所学到的东西。

Steven: It’s funny in life how some of the most traumatic things that happen to us, and trauma is such a subjective thing, so what’s trauma for me is not for Francis Ngannou, who I’ve heard his story, and you know, walking out of Africa and jumping over barbed wire and walking across the Sahara Desert is an amazing, I just can’t, you know, it’s like I hear he’s a very nice guy as well.

史蒂文: 生活中的有些事情很有意思，那些对我们来说最痛苦的经历，其实是非常主观的。对我来说是创伤的事情，对弗朗西斯·恩甘努来说可能就不是。我听过他的故事，他走出非洲，翻越带刺的铁丝网，穿越撒哈拉沙漠，这太不可思议了，我无法想象自己能够做到。而且我听说他还是一个非常友善的人。

Andrew: He’s exceptionally nice. He’s a wonderful individual.

安德鲁: 他非常友善，是一个很棒的人。

Steven: But, I’m I’m really interested in how our traumatic experiences end up, um, dragging us, in whatever shape in life, dragging us or making us driven. That it’s almost two sides of the same coin sometimes. But, I just wanted to zoom back in on when you were younger. Um, because I was reading about, at sort of 14, 15 years old, you were put into a residential treatment program.

史蒂文: 但我真正感兴趣的是，我们那些痛苦的经历最终是如何影响我们的，无论是在人生的哪个阶段，它们会拖累我们，还是会让我们更有动力？这有时就像一枚硬币的两面。我想回到你年轻的时候，因为我读到过，你在 14、15 岁的时候被送进了一个住宿治疗项目。

Andrew: I was. So, one day in school, and by the way I wasn’t in school much. And if I was there, I was the kid with the hoodie on it, his head on the table, you know just kind of like sleeping, or drawing, or, um, I was not tuned into to what I should have been tuned into. Um, I was looking back, I think I was depressed. I was sad. I was confused by the fracture of my family. And listen, um, divorce and family reorganization can take place without all that. Unfortunately, this was a very complicated situation. Um, and maybe it was also puberty combined with general confusion about life. Um, those things, um, combined to you know put me a state that I think, looking back, I was I was scared, depressed, and confused, like a lot of young people happen to be at that age. So, a number of things happened. Um, I was getting into trouble. Uh, I wasn’t attending school. I was truant a lot. Um, and yeah, one day they came to like get me. They basically called me into the office, office. I was sitting there, um, talking to the school counselor. It wasn’t my first time doing that. And then, some other people showed up there, and I started to realize like, “Uh oh, I think I know what this is.” Um, which was they were going to take me away. Um, now the exact stimulus for all this, whether or not a friend, I think I know who it was, had been concerned about me and had intervened, or whether or not it was purely from the parent side, isn’t clear to me still. I have my theories, they have theirs. Um, but in any event, I soon after found myself in a residential treatment program. And, um, it was interesting, because it was the first time that I had ever had my freedom taken away from me. You know, that was an experience, like doors go locked, and you’re like, “Whoa, you know like what is, it my freedom taken away?

安德鲁: 是的。有一天在学校里，顺便提一下，我不经常上学。如果我去了，我就是那个戴着连帽衫、趴在桌子上睡觉或者画画的孩子，嗯，我并没有专注于我应该专注的事情。回想起来，我觉得当时有点抑郁。我感到悲伤，因家庭的破裂而困惑。虽然离婚和家庭重组未必会引发所有这些情绪，但不幸的是，我的情况非常复杂。可能还与青春期和对生活的普遍困惑有关。所有这些因素结合在一起，让我陷入了一种状态，回想起来，我感到害怕、抑郁和困惑，就像许多同龄人那样。然后，一系列事情发生了。嗯，我开始惹麻烦。嗯，我不去上学，经常旷课。嗯，有一天他们来找我，把我叫进了办公室。我坐在那里和学校的辅导员谈话，这不是我第一次这样做。然后有其他人进来了，我开始意识到，‘糟了，我大概知道这是怎么回事了。’嗯，他们打算把我带走。至于这一切的起因，是否是因为一个朋友担心我并介入了，我认为我知道是谁，还是完全出于父母的原因，我至今仍不清楚。我有我的猜测，他们也有他们的。嗯，但不管怎样，不久之后我发现自己被送进了一个住院治疗项目。嗯，这很有趣，因为这是我第一次真正感受到自由被剥夺。你知道，那是一种特别的体验，就像门被锁上了，你会想，‘哇，我的自由真的被剥夺了。

Steven: Well, you’re locked, you’re locked in a treatment program basically.

史蒂文: 嗯，你被关起来了，你基本上是被关在一个治疗项目里。

Andrew: You know, these were all kids that were delinquent, or had problems of various sorts. So, you’re on a hallway with a bunch of other kids. Um, you know you’re staying there at night, you’re not leaving. You’re not free to walk to leave. And they make you do group therapy. You have to do one-on-one therapy. Um, you have an hour to exercise outside. You’re not leaving the the grounds.

安德鲁: 你知道，这些孩子要么是犯了错误，要么是有各种各样的问题。我和一群孩子被关在走廊里，晚上也不能离开，没有自由走出去。他们强迫我们进行团体治疗，以及一对一治疗。我们每天只有一个小时的时间可以在外面锻炼，但不能离开这个地方。

Steven: Yeah, this is a, like a combination of like if you were to just sort of merge in your mind like youth detention, and hospital, right? That’s kind of the the the unity of these, now, kids there, and they, and we were kids, right? Um, and there was a, there was a unit of much younger kids, and there was a unit of people much older than us.

史蒂文: 是的，这就像把青少年拘留所和医院融合在一起，对吧？那就是这些地方的特点，当时我们都还是孩子，那里还有一个年纪小得多的孩子的单元，还有一个年纪大得多的孩子的单元。

Andrew: And I’ll never forget what they said. One of the counselors there said to us, “Listen, the kids over there, the younger ones, and the adults over there, they’re crazy. You guys, you’re not crazy. You just have problems.” And I’ll never forget one of the kids that was in there with me goes, “Yeah, but that’s exactly what they’re telling the people in the other two, in the other two units.” So, pretty quickly I realized, like, this place is is problematic, and I was scared. I won’t forget, like my my roommate, who turned out to be a very kind person, but he looked like Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker. And he had a cutting problem, and he was like a scary looking guy. But, as I got to know him, I realized that he, um, was just a a kid with a lot of problems. Different than mine, but a lot of problems. So, you’re in there with kids with severe drug issues, with, um, some were suicidal, some weren’t, some had aggression issues. Um, it was a co-ed unit during during the day. Obviously, you’re you’re housed, you know, it was boys with boys, girls with girls. Um, and after about 2, 3 days I realized, “Okay, the only way out of here is to do the work.” So, it did the work. I sat down, and I started, for the first time, really talking about what was going on for me, and listening. You can learn a lot in those places by listening to what’s going on for other people. And I realized that a lot of what was going on internally for me, had to do with the fact that you know, know you know, I mean what do we need? We we basically need safety and acceptance, at some level, you know, from from parents. We also need guardrails. And at that time, I was lacking all three. Um, and I think you know my inherent intensity, and I’m a pretty, um, I’m not an emotional person in the sense that I don’t emote easily. Um, but I’m a very feeling person. I feel a lot. I don’t know how other people perceive me, but I feel a lot. And, um, I think what was happening in my family unit at that time, felt devastating. And, um, I missed my sister. She was off off in college. She had gone off to college. I’ve always been really close with my sister. And and really, because this was like late, well this was late ’80s early ’90s, I also didn’t know many people from homes without, you know, a mom and dad, this kind of thing. And I had been exposed to a lot already. You know, that one of the beautiful things about skateboarding, at least back then, it’s different now, is that it was completely self-organized.

安德鲁: 我永远不会忘记他们说的话。那里的一位辅导员告诉我们：“听着，那边年纪比较小的孩子，以及那边年纪比较大的成年人，他们都疯了。而你们没有疯，你们只是有一些问题。”我永远不会忘记，和我一起被关在那里的一个孩子说：“是的，但他们对另外两个单元的孩子也是这么说的。”所以我很快就意识到，这个地方有问题，我感到很害怕。我的室友后来证明是一个很善良的人，但他长得像“夜行者”理查德·拉米雷斯，而且他有自残的倾向，看起来很可怕。但随着我逐渐了解他，我意识到他只是一个有很多问题的可怜孩子，虽然他的问题与我的不同，但问题确实很多。那里有患有严重毒瘾的孩子，有些人有自杀倾向，有些人没有，还有些人有暴力倾向。白天，男女孩子会在同一个单元里活动，但晚上我们会被分开，男孩和男孩住在一起，女孩和女孩住在一起。大约两三天后，我意识到，‘好吧，想要离开这里，唯一的办法就是认真去做那些工作。’所以，我开始做那些工作。我坐下来，第一次真正开始谈论自己的内心世界，并倾听别人的故事。在那种环境下，通过倾听别人的经历，你可以学到很多东西。我也意识到，我内心的许多困扰，其实与我们每个人都需要的东西有关。我们基本上需要从父母那里获得安全感和接纳感，同时也需要一定的规矩和界限。而那时，我正好缺乏这三样东西。嗯，我想你知道我天生的性格比较强烈，我并不是那种容易流露情感的人。嗯，但我是一个感受很深的人。我内心有很多情感。我不知道别人怎么评价我，但我确实有很多情感。嗯，我认为当时家庭里发生的事情对我来说是毁灭性的。我非常想念我的姐姐。她当时已经去上大学了。我们一直关系非常亲密。那是在80年代末、90年代初，我当时也不认识很多来自单亲家庭的人。我已经接触了很多事情。你知道，滑板运动的一大魅力，至少在当时，跟现在不一样的是，它是完全自发组织的。

So, whenever I could, I would get a ride with a friend, or take the bus up to San Francisco. There was this now famous, SL, infamous scene, the Embarcadero Plaza called EMB, was this kind of self-organized place. You have these in major cities elsewhere. There was Love Park in Philadelphia, you, Washington Square Park in New York. And back then, I learned a lot from the older, it was mostly guys then. Now there’s more women in skateboarding, girls and women in skateboarding, and they rip, they’re so good. But, um, back then it was mostly guys. And so, I learned all sorts of things there, some of which, you know, was far too young to learn. I got basically a street education, um, from kids that weren’t going to school, and who were just like living this wild, free life. And I do want to be clear that even though there were, let’s call them, untoward elements, there was also an incredible beauty and like, you know, my friend Jake Rosenberg started going up there as well. He had his own challenges that I only learned about later. Um, and he brought a video camera, high eight video. He started filming the now, like, just like truly iconic videos of Mike Carroll, these names will mean things to Henry Sanchez, like Mark Gonzalez, like, so, he just started filming all this, and then he made the first Plan B videos, and he made the Waiting for Lightning documentary about Danny Way, like, jumping the Great Wall of China. And our friend Mike Blabac, who’s the photographer for the Huberman Lab podcast, of all things, who became one of the most iconic Action Sports portrait photographers, was a kid who basically drove out from Michigan. I don’t even know if he graduated high school, something he probably did, and then he slept in the clothing stacks at the Gap store, hung out in Embarcadero, and took photos. And those photos and those videos that Mike and Jacob, and other people took are now iconic in skateboarding. And so, I was also exposed to this incredible world of DIY, like like, take your passion, take your circumstance and pick a craft, and just document stuff.

所以，只要有机会，我就会搭朋友的车或者坐公交去旧金山。在那里，有一个如今非常有名、甚至恶名昭著的地方，叫做Embarcadero广场（简称EMB），是一个自发形成的聚集地。其他大城市也有类似的地方，比如费城的Love Park，纽约的华盛顿广场公园。那时候，我从那些年长的人身上学到了很多，当时滑板几乎都是男生。现在滑板界有更多的女性参与，她们技艺高超，非常厉害。但在那时候，主要还是男生。我在那里学到了各种各样的东西，有些东西，老实说，我当时还太年轻，根本不该知道。我基本上是在街头接受了教育，和那些不上学、过着狂野自由生活的孩子们一起成长。我想强调的是，虽然那里有一些我们可以称之为“不正当”的元素，但也有难以置信的美好。比如，我的朋友Jake Rosenberg也开始去那里，他有一些我后来才知道的挑战。他带了一台Hi8摄像机，开始拍摄一些现在真正具有标志性的视频，比如Mike Carroll、Henry Sanchez、Mark Gonzalez等滑手的身影。他后来制作了第一批Plan B视频，还拍摄了关于Danny Way飞越中国长城的《Waiting for Lightning》纪录片。我们的朋友Mike Blabac，现在是Huberman Lab播客的摄影师，当年他是从密歇根开车来的一个孩子。我不知道他是否高中毕业，或许是毕业了，然后他就在Gap店的衣物堆里睡觉，白天在Embarcadero拍照。那些照片和视频，如今在滑板界已经成了经典。我也接触到了这个令人难以置信的DIY世界——就是把你的激情、你的处境与某项手艺结合起来，然后记录下来。

And so, in many ways like what happened at in Embarcadero, what happened in skateboarding, and I always love punk rock music, and going to shows. I have no musical talent, and I I didn’t suck at skateboarding, but I wasn’t going to go anywhere with it. But the, what I saw was, if you love something and you want to learn as much as possible about it, and you love the culture around it, you do have to learn how to sort out the untoward elements. Don’t get yourself into trouble, but you take that energy, and I just took it to academics.

所以在很多方面，就像在恩巴卡德罗广场和滑板运动中发生的事情一样，我一直都很喜欢朋克摇滚音乐，并且经常去看演出。我没有任何音乐天赋，我的滑板技术虽然还不错，但我知道我不会在这方面取得什么成就。我意识到，如果你热爱某件事，想要尽可能多地了解它，并热爱它周围的文化，你就必须学会如何排除那些负面的因素，不要让自己惹上麻烦，并把你的精力投入到其中。我就是这样做的，我把我的精力投入到了学术研究中。

I remember realizing when I got to graduate school, I found a wonderful lab to work in, with a wonderful woman named Barbara Chapman. Unfortunately, she passed away. And at the time, she said, “Listen, I’m going to have a couple kids, but we have grants you can”, so she said, “I’m going to have a couple kids, so I’m going to be very busy, but we have grants, and here’s the lab.” She said, “Don’t burn the lab down, don’t hurt yourself, but just do experiments, have fun.” And I realized I was like, “This is the best.” And I had so much energy, and I thought, “I never have to go home.” So, I lived there a lot of the time, brush my teeth in the sink there, work out at the gym, gun shower, come back. And I remember people saying, “You’re going to burn out. What are you doing?” And I’m like, “What are you talking about?” And I would work 80, sometimes 100 hours a week. I was so happy. And I realized, like, this is the exact same feeling. I’m just taking my interest, and I’m just pouring myself into. I did that when I was a graduate student, I did it when I was a postdoc. And actually, when I was a postdoc, I started writing some music, um, articles for Thrasher Magazine. I’ve always kept some little tie to the skateboarding industry that way, just to make some extra cash. And then when I was a junior professor, I had to really pour myself just into the laboratory, but it still worked out.

我记得当我进入研究生院时，我找到了一个很棒的实验室，与一位名叫芭芭拉·查普曼的优秀女性一起工作。不幸的是，她后来去世了。当时，她说：“听着，我快要生孩子了，但我们有一些你可以申请的科研经费，实验室也在这里。”她说：“不要把实验室烧了，也不要让自己受伤，尽情地做实验，享受其中的乐趣吧。”我当时觉得：“这真是太棒了！”我充满了活力，心想：“我再也不用回家了。”所以我大部分时间都住在实验室里，在那里刷牙，在健身房锻炼，冲个澡，然后回到实验室继续工作。有人对我说：“你会累垮的，你到底在做什么？”我当时说：“你在说什么？”我每周工作 80 个小时，有时甚至 100 个小时，但我感到非常快乐。我意识到，这种感觉和以前一样，我只是全身心地投入到我感兴趣的事情中。我做研究生时是这样，做博士后时也是这样。事实上，在我做博士后期间，我还开始为 Thrasher 杂志撰写一些关于音乐的文章。我一直以这种方式与滑板行业保持着联系，只是为了赚点外快。当我成为一名助理教授后，我必须全身心地投入到实验室工作中，但这对我来说仍然是一件乐在其中的事情。

And I guess the point is that, you know, earlier you and I were talking about, if you have, and I’m borrowing in this phrase from one of my heroes, Martha Beck, um, who’s a wonderful person and teacher. As such wisdom, and she calls it a, um, interest-based attention system. Some people might call it ADHD. But, have you ever noticed that even people, and we know this from the scientific literature, people, kids, adults with ADHD, when they’re so-called ADHD, when they are doing something they really love, they’re like a laser. They’re not going to peel off that. Their attention is like level 11 out of 10. So, I took that energy that I’ve always had in me, for fish, for tropical birds, skateboarding, punk rock music. Eventually, it was biology. And I just went, “Okay, here are my chips. I’m all in, all in.”

我想说的是，之前我们谈到过，我借用我的一位偶像玛莎·贝克的话来说，她是一位了不起的人，也是一位优秀的老师，她拥有非凡的智慧，她把这称为“基于兴趣的注意力系统”。有些人可能会称之为多动症。但你有没有注意到，那些患有多动症的人，无论孩子还是成人，当他们在做自己真正热爱的事情时，他们会非常专注，他们的注意力水平会非常高，就像激光一样。我把我一直以来的热情，从热带鱼、鸟类、滑板、朋克摇滚音乐，最终转移到了生物学上。我全身心地投入其中，毫无保留。

But the goal has always been, and remains, to take what I learn and share it. Because, the real joy in doing anything for me anyway, is the ability to share in that knowledge, or in that experience. And so, um, those early years were really choppy, and really dangerous, you know frankly. But then, when I started a laboratory, and decided, “Hey, I’m going to study human stress. Let’s go get VR of stressful circumstances.” And my friend Michael Muller, who’s a very accomplished portrait photographer in Hollywood, and also takes photos of great white sharks out of cages, he said to me, “Oh, you know your VR stimulus in your lab? Um, here’s”, what he told me, he he’s like, “It sucks.” He said, “It sucks, it doesn’t look real. It’s all CGI, it’s not scary at all. How about we, you know, go film some great white sharks down in Guadalupe Island, and we leave the cage.” And, you know, the the young Andrew was like, “Okay.” So, got dive certified, went and did it one year, stayed in the cage. Went the next year, exited the cage. I’m not recommending people live this way. I’m not, because I had an air failure at depth, the second year while I was in the cage. I bailed out. I made it. I lived, but it was super scary. And it was not an experience I want to repeat. And I realized, you know, that’s the line. Like I, you know, the great Oliver Sacks, another hero of mine. British trained neurologist and and author, he wrote, uh, was basically what became the script for Awakenings and things like that.

但我的目标一直都是，并且仍然是，将我学到的东西分享出去。因为对我来说，做任何事情的真正乐趣在于能够分享那种知识或体验。所以，嗯，那些早期的岁月真的很动荡，也很危险，坦白说。但是后来，当我建立了一个实验室，并决定，“嘿，我要研究人类压力。让我们去获取一些压力环境的虚拟现实。” 我的朋友迈克尔·穆勒，他是好莱坞一位非常有成就的肖像摄影师，也拍摄了很多在没有笼子的情况下的大白鲨，他对我说，“哦，你知道你实验室里的虚拟现实刺激吗？嗯，他告诉我，它很糟糕。” 他说，“它很糟糕，看起来一点都不真实，完全是电脑生成的图像，一点都不吓人。我们为什么不去瓜达卢佩岛拍一些大白鲨，我们不带笼子。” 而年轻的安德鲁则回应道，“好吧。” 于是，我取得了潜水认证，第一年去了，在笼子里待着。第二年再去的时候，我出了笼子。我不建议人们这样生活。我并不建议，因为第二年我在笼子里时在深水处出了空气故障。我逃了出来，活了下来，但这真的非常吓人，这是我不想重复的经历。我意识到，那就是底线。比如，我，伟大的奥利弗·萨克斯，我的另一个英雄，英国受训的神经学家兼作家，他写的东西基本上成了《唤醒》之类的剧本。

Um, there’s a quote about him that resonates a lot. And the quote I think is, “I, you know, uh, an early teacher of his said, ‘Oliver will go far, provided he does not go too far.’” And so, you know, you have to be careful, right? These adventures, leaving school, doing, you can’t be haphazard about it. So, if you look at the broad arc, it’s highly nonlinear, but there’s a common thread through all of it, which is this desire to learn, curiosity, desire to share, intensity. And when I’m involved in anyone thing, and I recommend that if people are involved in anyone thing, if it’s podcasting, or sport, or video games, or math, or AI, or program, whatever it is, skateboarding, whatever it is, that you can’t be haphazard in that world, because forward progress, even if you change things over time, is the consequence of taking that inherent uniqueness that we each have, and whatever level of intensity we have, and making sure that you you know do take steps forward. And there are, what I’ve learned, is as a child, as an adolescent, and as an adult, there are all these traps along the way. They’re all these shoots down to failure and destruction, and you have to be very, very thoughtful and so, you can’t be reckless.

嗯，有一句关于他的名言让我印象深刻，他的老师说：“奥利弗会走得很远，只要他不要走得太远。”所以，我们必须小心谨慎。这些冒险，例如离开学校，做一些看似疯狂的事情，都不能草率行事。我的成长之路虽然并非一帆风顺，但始终贯穿着一条主线，那就是我对学习的渴望，对世界的好奇心，以及想要分享知识和经验的强烈愿望。当我全身心投入到某件事情中时，无论是播客、体育运动、电子游戏、数学、人工智能、编程，还是滑板，我都会建议大家不要草率行事。因为即使你随着时间的推移而改变了方向，你取得的进步，都是你充分利用自身独特优势以及个人努力程度的结果。我意识到，无论是在童年、青少年时期还是成年时期，人生的道路上都充满了陷阱，稍有不慎就会走向失败和毁灭。所以，我们必须深思熟虑，不能鲁莽行事。

Steven: I’m really compelled as well by the letter you sent to your parents. Yeah, they, they must have been very surprised.

史蒂文: 你写给你父母的那封信也让我很感动。是的，他们一定很惊讶。

Andrew: That letter was written in a house, on a little street in the little town called Isla Vista, on Padova Street, where I’d essentially been squatting for the summer with my ferret. That was the, I tell you that because that was the picture I had, a ferret, her name was Iris, that my first girlfriend, who had left me by then because she was smart, because I had nothing going on.

安德鲁: 那封信是在一个叫伊斯拉维斯塔的小镇的帕多瓦街上的一个房子里写的。那个夏天，我基本上就在那条小街上的房子里和我的雪貂一起过日子。那只雪貂叫艾瑞斯，是我第一个女朋友给我的，她后来因为看清了我的一事无成而离开了我。我告诉你这些是因为这些画面依然深深刻在我的脑海里。

Um, we were, me and Iris were living together. I didn’t even have a bed in the place. I thought, “Well, why pay rent?” you know, like, no one in like, where I grown up with, all these like like riffraff kids. Now, the town, to be clear, the town I grew up in, Palo Alto, now is known as like one of the wealthiest places. That time, it was like kind of upper middle class. But, when I say like riffraff kids, I mean like the people that congregated around skateboarding in the late ’80s, early ’90s, were the kind of like parentless feral types. So, I learned a lot. I learned I can sleep mummy style anywhere, in a car, in a van, in a corner. So, like, why pay rent that summer? I’d have more money to keep and save, if I just like got a pillow and a couple blankets, and a sleeping bag. And this little place, I was living there with my ferret, and I came back from that fight on July 4th, and I thought, “Okay, like, this is it.” And I think it was by the end of the weekend, I had written out this letter, that said essentially the following. It said, “Look, I don’t know why you guys decided to just fracture everything.”

嗯，我和艾丽丝住在一起，我甚至连一张床都没有。我想：“为什么要付房租呢？”在我长大的地方，没有人会付房租，那些玩滑板的孩子都是一些无拘无束的流浪儿。我长大的小镇帕洛阿尔托，现在已经是美国最富裕的地区之一了，但在当时，它只是一个中上阶层的社区。我所说的“流浪儿”，指的是那些在 80 年代末 90 年代初聚集在滑板场周围的，没有父母管教的孩子们。我从他们身上学到了很多东西，我学会了如何在任何地方睡觉，在汽车里，在货车里，在角落里，像木乃伊一样卷缩着身体睡觉。所以我想，为什么那个夏天要付房租呢？我只需要一个枕头、几条毯子和一个睡袋就够了，这样我就可以省下更多的钱。我和我的雪貂就住在那个小房子里。7 月 4 日那天，我打架回来后，我想：“我必须做出改变了。”到了周末结束的时候，我已经写好了那封信，信的内容大致如下：“我不知道你们为什么要把一切都搞砸。

I understood why my parents didn’t want to be together. They were incompatible. By the way, they’re both happily married now to wonderful people for many years, so there there’s a happy ending there. But, at the time, I was very confused. It wasn’t that that I needed them to be together, but the level of friction in their separation was just like, it, I felt like a lot of it fell on me, and and there are reasons for that. But, I basically forgave them. I basically said, “Listen, I forgive you. Um, I realized that I need to take control of my life.” I was 18. So, I’m a fall baby. So, it was like, I was almost 19. I’m, you know, 18 years old, 19 years old. And, “I need to do something with my life, and the only way I’m going to do that is by getting super focused and super organized.” So, I somehow had the the idea to externalize this. And then, I wrote essentially the same letter to myself, and then I just, as my girlfriend, who eventually got back together with me. That was interesting. As soon as I started working hard in school, I’ll never forget what she said. We’re still friendly. She’s married with her own family, and they have a a beautiful family. But, every once in a while, I’ll hear from her. And I will never forget what she said to me about a year later, when I was just absolutely rabid about learning. She said, um, “You know, you’ve become a monster.” And I was like, “A monster?” And she’s like, “Yeah, a monster of learning, and class, and getting up early, and you tuck your shirt in.” Like, I got into this whole thing of like dressing the opposite of everyone else that lived in that little town. It’s a little beach town. Everyone wore flip-flops, rode beach cruisers at that time. It was like baggy shorts, long t-shirts. And I start tucking in my shirt, a belt. I would get like, all, like you know, like cleaned up, and I’ and I’d go to class, and people like, “What is wrong with this guy?” I just wanted to go completely against the grain, and just be as disciplined and organized as possible. And I basically was parenting myself. And I think that this is something that I learned how to do early on. I love my parents, but I learned how to mother and father myself, and that was powerful. It was like I was a young guy. Um, but let’s face it, you know, at 19, you’re young, but you’re not that young in the sense that if you screw up, you know, if you, you know, I don’t know. I had friends who got into drunk driving stuff. A friend of ours was killed in a drunk driving accident. Um, I wasn’t real close with him, but I knew him real well. This guy, Phil Shah, great skateboarder, was killed because someone drove drunk. He wasn’t driving drunk, dead. Bunch of people dead, are in jail. So, you know, when you’re 18 or older, like the consequences go, super, super linear, you know, shift. Um, where small mistakes can lead to really bad outcomes. So, yeah, I just kind of scruffed myself, and was like, “Let’s do this.” And, you know, here I am.

我理解我的父母为什么不想在一起生活，因为他们性格不合。现在他们都找到了各自的伴侣，并且已经幸福地生活了很多年，所以这是一个美好的结局。但在当时，我非常困惑。我并不是希望他们继续生活在一起，而是他们分居时产生的巨大摩擦让我感到非常痛苦，我感觉自己承受了太多压力。我最终原谅了他们，我对他们说：“听着，我原谅你们了。我意识到我需要掌控我自己的生活。”那时我 18 岁，或者说快 19 岁了。我需要为我的人生做点什么，我唯一能做的就是让自己变得更加专注和自律。我突然有了一个想法，我决定把这个想法写下来。我给自己写了一封信，信的内容与写给我父母的信基本相同。后来，我的女朋友和我复合了，这很有趣。当我开始努力学习的时候，我永远不会忘记她说的话。我们现在仍然是朋友，她已经结婚生子，拥有了一个幸福的家庭。但我们偶尔还会联系，我永远不会忘记，大约一年后，当我全身心投入到学习中时，她对我说：“你知道吗，你已经变成了一个怪物。”我问她：“怪物？”她说：“是的，一个学习的怪物，一个上课的怪物，一个早起的怪物，你甚至把衬衫都塞进了裤子里。”我开始做一些与众不同的事情，我的穿着打扮与小镇上的其他人格格不入。那是一个海滨小镇，每个人都穿着人字拖，骑着沙滩自行车，穿着宽松的短裤和长 T 恤。而我开始把衬衫塞进裤子里，系上皮带，把自己打扮得整整齐齐地去上课。人们会说：“这个人是怎么了？”我只是想彻底改变自己，让自己变得更加自律和有条理。我开始像父母一样严格要求自己，我认为这是我从小就学会的事情。我爱我的父母，但我学会了如何照顾自己，这让我变得更加强大。我当时还很年轻，但 19 岁其实并不算小，因为如果你犯了错，后果会很严重。我有一些朋友因为酒后驾车而惹上了麻烦，我们的一位朋友甚至因此丧命。我虽然和他关系并不是很亲密，但我很了解他，他叫菲尔·沙阿，是一位很棒的滑板运动员，他因为别人酒后驾车而死于车祸。他并没有喝酒，却失去了生命，而那些酒后驾车的人现在都在监狱里。所以，当你年满 18 岁，你就需要为自己的行为负责，因为即使是很小的错误，也可能会导致非常严重的后果。我下定决心改变自己，并最终取得了成功。

Steven: I’m so intrigued by that, because in that moment, you have, I think, a moment in which a lot of people are searching for in their lives, where you have a, you have a decision to do it differently. And I’ve always wondered what it takes for someone to get there. And is it something that you can accelerate towards? Like, is there, if I’m laying on the couch right now, and I’m feeling that, is there something I can do to get me there? Or do I need more pain?

史蒂文: 我对此非常着迷，因为在那一刻，你做出了一个许多人都在苦苦追寻的决定，你决定改变自己的人生。我一直想知道是什么促使一个人做出这样的决定。这是可以加速实现的吗？例如，如果我现在躺在沙发上，我也有这种感觉，我可以做些什么来让自己也做出改变呢？或者我需要经历更多的痛苦才能做到这一点？

Andrew: Feel, year for you, I’ll tell you super scary. Being like almost 19 years old, girlfriend left me, I’m not good at anything, I wasn’t good at anything. Not skateboarding, couldn’t play an instrument, everyone in that town surfed. Um, family family, I mean, I didn’t, yeah, I could have gone to the fire service, and that’s a wonderful career path. Um, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t have any like marketable skills. I couldn’t really do anything, except I knew my capacity to learn. I’ve always had a very good memory, and I’ve always enjoyed learning. So, I thought, “Okay, school seems like a good option. They tell you what you need to know.” In fact, at one point I realized, and I think it was Ryan Holiday that said that, you know, the people who should absolutely not drop out of college, are the people who are not doing well, because the real world is a lot harder. In many ways, it’s a lot harder than college. In college, they tell, they tell you what to do. I remember taking a class in Greek mythology. You go there, if you sit near the front, you pay attention, you try not to pay attention to anyone else, you sit down, they tell you what you need to know. Now, sometimes it’s complicated. You can’t keep up. But then they have these things called office hours where you can ask. They have teaching assistants. I mean, the whole thing is set up so that you almost can’t fail if you do the required steps. Whereas, with skateboarding, it’s like I was always getting broke off, as they say. You know, I was always rolling my left foot, snapped again, uh, nothing, nothing. Couldn’t do it.

安德鲁: 那种感觉，对你来说，真的非常可怕。我当时快 19 岁了，女朋友离开了我，我感觉自己一无是处，什么都做不好。我不会滑板，也不会演奏乐器，而镇上的每个人都会冲浪。我当时没有任何可以谋生的技能，我什么都做不了，除了学习。我从小记忆力就很好，而且一直很喜欢学习。所以我想，上学似乎是一个不错的选择，因为老师会告诉你你需要知道的一切。事实上，我后来意识到，我认为是瑞恩·霍利迪说过，那些最不应该从大学辍学的人，恰恰是那些学习成绩不好的人，因为现实世界要比大学残酷得多。在大学里，老师会告诉你应该做什么。我记得我上过一节希腊神话课，如果你坐在教室前排，认真听讲，不去理会其他人，你就能学到你需要知道的一切。当然，有些课程可能会很复杂，你可能跟不上进度，但你可以利用老师的办公时间去提问，他们也会安排助教来帮助你。整个大学体系的设计就是为了让你能够顺利毕业，只要你按照要求完成所有步骤。但在滑板运动中，我总是失败，我总是扭伤我的左脚，一次又一次地骨折，我根本无法取得成功。

Um, there’s so much uncertainty in other things. At least with a college education, for me, it was like, “Okay, I can, I can learn this stuff.” And then, what I found, is when there’s a desire to learn, and then you learn, and then you do well, and I started doing very well. Um, and, but there’s that one class that I got a B+ in, that I’m still pissed off about. You know, my first year was a disaster, then it was all As, and then there’s this one class in neural development, from Ben Reese. And I got a B+. And as a consequence, when I went to graduate school, I studied neural development. You know, it’s the thing that you don’t get, the the place where you make an error, that you forever carry that signal, “I need to get better at that.” So, I think a lot of it is just having the the knowledge of self, right? What did the Oracle say? “Know thyself.” The knowledge of self, to really think, “Okay, like, what are my strengths? Do I like to learn? If I’m interested in something, do I have a voracious appetite?” Maybe if you’re a person with less energy, um, maybe, uh, you’re more reflective, or you like to journal, or you need more time to process. I think turning what often appear as weaknesses into strengths, is really possible.

嗯，很多事情都充满了不确定性。但对我来说，至少在接受大学教育时，我觉得，“好吧，这些东西我能学会。”然后我发现，当你有了学习的渴望，真正去学时，表现就会越来越好。我就是这样，成绩逐渐提高。嗯，但还是有一门课，我得了B+，到现在还让我很不爽。你知道，我的第一年简直是一场灾难，之后几乎都是A，直到有一门神经发育的课，由Ben Reese教授教的，我只得了B+。这导致我在研究生阶段专门研究神经发育。你知道，那些你没掌握好的东西，那些你犯过错的地方，总会提醒你，“我在这方面需要更好。”所以，我认为很多时候，关键在于对自己的了解，对吧？古希腊神谕说了什么？“认识你自己。”这种自我认知，促使你真正去思考，“好吧，我的长处是什么？我是否喜欢学习？如果我对某件事感兴趣，我是不是会有强烈的求知欲？”也许你是个精力不那么充沛的人，嗯，可能你更倾向于反思，或者喜欢写日记，或者需要更多的时间去处理。我认为将那些看似弱点的东西转化为优势是完全可能的。

And then, I do think that we are all each endowed with some unique gift. I really believe in this. Um, it’s not mystical for me. I think that we all have some wiring of our brains that’s very similar, and we all have some unique wi iring, based on our genetics and our experience. And I just thought, “I’m going to keep paying attention to what fills my body with energy.”

我坚信，我们每个人都拥有独特的天赋。这对我来说并不是什么神秘的事情。我认为，我们的大脑结构既有相似之处，也有基于基因和个人经历的不同之处。我只想专注于那些让我充满活力的事物。

Steven: One of the most inspiring, and I think liberating things that I’ve heard in your work, is this idea of neuroplasticity. Because, if you’re, if the brain can physiologically change, based on what I’m doing, then it means that who I am now, my identity, that 60, that 19-year-old who’s sleeping in the mummy thing with the ferret, isn’t who I always have to be. I can literally change.

史蒂文: 我在你分享的内容中听到的最鼓舞人心、最令人感到解放的观点之一，就是神经可塑性的概念。因为，如果大脑能够根据我的行为发生生理上的改变，这意味着我现在的身份，那个 19 岁时和雪貂一起睡在睡袋里的我，并不是我最终的命运。我可以改变自己。

Um, we’ve spoken a little bit around like, what causes the motivation to actually change. But, knowing that there’s a, my brain will actually change, those two things are really inspiring for me, because it means that whatever rut I’m stuck in, isn’t necessarily a permanent one. Now, you said that the motivation to change comes from fear.

嗯，我们已经简单地讨论过是什么促使人们做出改变。但是，知道我的大脑能够发生改变，这两件事对我来说真的很有启发，因为这意味着无论我现在身处何种困境，它都不是永久的。你说过，改变的动力来自于恐惧。

Andrew: Well, in my case, it took a a fear circumstance, fear of becoming a permanent failure, yeah, to motivate immense change. And um, uh, that was that circumstance. I I do believe however, that the best work, our most creative and best work, comes from a love of craft. But, sometimes in order to find what you truly love, you have to be scared into setting off on a path to find it. And, um, yeah. And and and that goes for relationships too. Sometimes, to find the right relationship, um, or relationships, it could be friendships, romantic relationships, etc., one has to be like deathly afraid of having to remain in the the relationship that you’re in, enough to leave.

安德鲁: 嗯，就我而言，是恐惧，是害怕成为一个永远的失败者，促使我做出了巨大的改变。我确实相信，我们最优秀、最有创意的作品，都来自于对技艺的热爱。但有时，为了找到你真正热爱的事物，你必须克服恐惧，踏上寻找它的道路。这对于人际关系也是如此。有时，为了找到合适的伴侣，无论是朋友还是恋人，你必须克服对失去现有关系的恐惧，才能离开它。

So, neuroplasticity is absolutely real. Um, it actually worked out that my scientific great-grandparents, two guys, David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, won the Nobel Prize for no, for neuroplasticity. Now, they weren’t the people who discovered it. It had actually been described for centuries. People understood that young kids can learn more easily than adults can. But, David and Tor won the Nobel Prize for essentially formalizing the and discovering the principles of neuroplasticity, how it works. And then, some years later, mainly one guy by the name of Mike Merzenich, but there were others that worked with him, discovered that neuroplasticity is actually a feature of the nervous system, the brain, throughout our entire lifespan. The rules change a little bit, in terms of how you rewire your brain, but if the question is, “Can a person change? Can you learn new thing? Can you unlearn certain patterns? Can you overcome traumas at any age?” The answer is absolutely, categorically, yes. How well, it’s very clear that as a child, until about age 25, more or less, just passive experience will shape the brain for better or worse. After about age 25, and again, these are not strict cutoffs, we can change our brain. But, what’s required is a marked shift in the neuro chemical environment, under which something happens.

神经可塑性确实存在。实际上，我的科学前辈David Hubel和Torsten Wiesel因为神经可塑性研究获得了诺贝尔奖。虽然他们不是发现这个概念的人，但神经可塑性已经被描述了几个世纪，人们早就明白年轻的孩子比成年人更容易学习。不过，David和Tor得奖是因为他们系统化并发现了神经可塑性的原理和工作机制。几年后，主要是Mike Merzenich及其团队，发现了神经可塑性其实贯穿整个生命过程。虽然随着年龄增长，大脑的重塑规则会有所不同，但如果问：“人能改变吗？能学会新东西吗？能在任何年龄打破旧的模式吗？能克服创伤吗？”答案是绝对肯定的。虽然在孩子时期（大约25岁前）被动经验会塑造大脑，但在25岁后，大脑仍能改变，只是需要神经化学环境的显著变化。

So, one of the reasons why any traumatic event will forever be remembered, although, by the way, you can remove some of the emotional load of that trauma. Does not have to be traumatic forever. Is because when we see or experience something very intense, of a fearful nature, there is the release of certain what we call neuromodulators. Things like epinephrine, adrenaline, and other neuromodulators that cause a st shift in our body and brain. And the nervous system recognizes this as unusual. And as a consequence, in the subsequent days, there’s reordering of the connections, so that the brain can prepare for that event, should it happen again. This is why we have what’s called one-trial learning. You go to a certain location, something terrible happens there, you will forever associate that location with something terrible. But, there are tools, therapy and other tools, that can allow the emotional load to be removed from that, so that you could go to that location and feel calm, no fear whatsoever.

所以，任何创伤性事件都会永远被我们记住，当然，我们可以消除这些创伤带来的部分情绪负担，它们不必永远成为我们的梦魇。这是因为当我们看到或经历一些非常强烈、可怕的事情时，我们的大脑会释放出一些神经调节物质，例如肾上腺素和其他神经调节物质，它们会导致我们的身心发生变化。神经系统会将其识别为异常情况，并在接下来的几天里重新调整神经连接，以便为再次发生类似事件做好准备。这就是我们所说的一次性学习。如果你去过某个地方，并且在那里经历了一些可怕的事情，你就会永远将那个地方与可怕的记忆联系在一起。但我们可以通过心理治疗和其他方法，消除这些创伤带来的情绪负担，让你能够再次回到那个地方，并且感到平静，不再恐惧。

The good news is, you can also learn anything you want to learn, provided there’s a shift in this neurochemical environment. This is why when we are very interested and focused on something, two of the main requirements for neuroplasticity, we have to be alert and we have to be focused. We can’t learn passively as adults. We can’t just play, um, you know, a a lecture about AI, and large language models, or neuroscience in the room, and then it just, the knowledge doesn’t just sink in by osmosis. But, if we pay attention, and we’re alert when we pay attention, there’s a shift in the neurochemicals associated with that attention. What we call the catac colomines. It’s three molecules, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine, all which cause an increase in alertness, all which cause an increase in focus, a tightening of our visual field, and our auditory field. So, like cones of attention is one way to think about it. And then, it sets in motion a bunch of biolog ical processes, such that if we get adequate sleep that night, maybe the next night as well, there’s reordering of neural connection, so that that knowledge, that new experience, is consolidated in your brain. You are forever changed, as a consequence of that experience.

好消息是，你只要改变你的神经化学环境，就可以学习任何你想学的东西。这就是为什么当我们对某件事物感到非常感兴趣并且全神贯注时，我们必须保持警觉和集中注意力，这两点是神经可塑性的重要条件。作为成年人，我们不能被动地学习，不能只是随意地播放关于人工智能、大型语言模型或神经科学的讲座，期望知识自动进入我们的头脑。然而，如果我们在专注时保持高度警觉，注意力相关的神经化学物质就会发生变化。我们称这些物质为儿茶酚胺，包括多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素，它们能够提高我们的警觉性和专注力，收紧我们的视觉和听觉焦点，就像注意力集中成一个锥形区域一样。这种情况下，如果我们当晚或接下来一晚得到充分的睡眠，神经连接就会重新调整，使得新获得的知识和体验得以巩固。这种体验会永久地改变你。

So, when we hear that the brain is constantly changing, “Everything that we encounter changes our brain,” that’s not true. Why would the brain change unless it needed to, right? As a child, the brain is basically a template for change. It’s it’s trying to understand the environment, and make predictions. And so, that’s true. Neuroplasticity is is a cardinal feature of of childhood and adolescence, and the teen years. Just think about the music you listened to when you were a teen. No other music will ever have as much significance. And that’s because as a teen, your body is flooded with hormones and neuromodulators. That the amount of meaning that comes from, now seemingly trivial events when you’re a teenager or adolescent, is immense. “That song meant so much”, and it’s because of the neurochemical meu it creates in you you. But, as an adult, it takes a stronger stimulus, as we say. And if you were to fall in love as an adult, or see something, a painting, that just strikes you as just so unbelievable, yes, then you are forever changed. But, just going to see a bunch of paintings at the Met, doesn’t mean that every single one of those paintings is forever stamped into your brain. The the nervous system is very, um, efficient in that way. It doesn’t change unless it has to, and it always chang es if it needs to, in order to keep you safe. This is why there’s an asymmetric influence of fear, as opposed to, um, just interest, in terms of what will shift our brain.

所以，我们经常听到人们说大脑在不断变化，“我们遇到的每件事都会改变我们的大脑”，这种说法并不准确。大脑只有在必要的时候才会发生改变。在儿童时期，大脑就像一个变化的模板，它试图理解周围的环境，并做出预测。所以，神经可塑性是儿童期、青春期以及青少年时期的重要特征。想想你在青少年时期听过的音乐，没有哪种音乐能像它们那样对你有如此重要的意义。这是因为在青少年时期，我们的身体充满了激素和神经调节物质，所以即使是那些看似微不足道的事情，也会对我们产生巨大的影响。“那首歌对我来说意义重大”，这是因为它在我们体内引发了强烈的神经化学反应。但成年后，我们需要更强的刺激才能改变大脑。如果你在成年后坠入爱河，或者看到一幅让你感到无比震撼的画作，那么你的大脑会因此而发生永久性的改变。但如果你只是去大都会博物馆看了一堆画，并不意味着每一幅画都会永远印刻在你的脑海里。神经系统是非常高效的，它只有在必要的时候才会发生改变，而且它始终会为了保护你的安全而做出改变。这就是为什么恐惧对大脑的影响要比兴趣更大。

But, it’s nice to know that love and excitement and appreciation are very strong stimula for changing the brain. And, um, you know, I can kind of draw to mind conversations I’ve had with my good friend, Rick Rubin. I’ll get accused of name-dropping, but I’m very fortunate to be close friends with Rick. And Rick always talks about, you know, how when you just see and experience something, and you just have this love for it, it changes the brain. He’s not a neuroscientist, but in many ways he’s a neuroscientist.

不过，知道爱、兴奋和感激是改变大脑的强大动力，这确实很不错。而且，我不禁想到我和好朋友里克·鲁宾的一些对话。有人可能会说我在炫耀名字，但我真的很幸运能和里克成为朋友。里克经常谈到，当你看到和体验某件事，并深深爱上它时，它会改变你的大脑。虽然他不是神经科学家，但在很多方面，他就像一个神经科学家。

So, in any case, you absolutely can change your brain, but you have to pay attention to the thing you want to incorporate into your brain. You have to be alert while you do that. And then, you absolutely have to go get some rest. Because, it’s during sleep, and during meditative states, and during rest, that the actual rewiring of the brain occurs.

所以，你绝对可以改变你的大脑，但你必须专注于你想学习的内容，并且在学习的过程中保持警觉。然后，你必须获得充足的休息，因为大脑的重塑发生在睡眠、冥想以及休息期间。

Steven: There’s a phrase that “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” And I think, as we get older and older, we become stubborn. In part because we’re very comfortable with the way things are, and routine and whatever. But, also I think we start to believe in this idea that we can’t change. And that, in in and of itself, makes it harder to change. Are you telling me that you can teach an old dog new tricks?

史蒂文: 有句俗语说：“老狗学不会新把戏。” 我觉得，随着年龄的增长，我们变得越来越固执。部分原因是我们对现有的生活方式、习惯等感到安逸。然而，我也认为我们开始相信自己无法改变的想法，而这种信念本身就让改变变得更加困难。你是要告诉我老狗其实可以学新把戏吗？

Andrew: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought this up. Um, let’s just destroy that myth now. You abs absolutely can teach an old dog, or human, new tricks. We know this. In fact, there’s studies, incredible studies, that were done down at the Salk Institute in San Diego, showing that even in people who are very old, right? These are people in their 80s and 90s. You know, the human lifespan, probably maximum human lifespan, as we understand it, is probably about 120 years, more or less. But, most people don’t make it to 100. But, so, 80 or 90 is pretty old.

安德鲁: 我很高兴你提到这个话题。嗯，让我们现在就打破这个迷思吧。你绝对可以教一只老狗或一个年长的人新技能，这是我们知道的事实。实际上，在圣地亚哥的索尔克研究所进行了一些非常出色的研究，显示即使是在80多岁或90多岁的人群中，他们依然可以学习新事物。我们知道人类的寿命大约最长可以达到120年左右，但大多数人活不到100岁，因此80或90岁已经算是非常高龄了。

Steven: Mhm.

史蒂文: 嗯哼。

Andrew: There’s still addition of new neurons occurring. These people who were, unfortunately, dying of terminal cancer, I believe, but other causes, agreed to take a a dye that actually gets incorporated into new neurons. And then, after they died, their brains were, um, you know, looked at under the microscope. And there was the addition of new neurons, even at late age. Now, I want to be very clear that most of learning is not the addition of new neurons, at least not in humans. But, from everything we know about neuroscience, it’s clear that doesn’t matter if you’re 90 years old, 70 years old, 50 years old, if you want to learn, you can learn. And that learning occurs through neuroplasticity, which is the reordering of neural connections, strengthening of certain connections, weakening of others, and in some rare cases, the addition of new neurons. But, brain change is absolutely real, at every stage of life.

安德鲁: 新的神经元仍然在生成。这些不幸罹患癌症的老人，以及其他原因导致死亡的人，他们同意在生前接受一种能够被新神经元吸收的染料。他们在去世后，他们的大脑被放在显微镜下观察，结果发现，即使是在晚年，仍然有新的神经元在生成。我想强调的是，大部分的学习过程并不是通过生成新的神经元来实现的，至少在人类身上不是这样。但根据我们对神经科学的了解，无论你是 90 岁、70 岁还是 50 岁，只要你想学习，你就能够学习。这种学习是通过神经可塑性来实现的，也就是神经连接的重新排序，强化某些连接，弱化其他连接，在极少数情况下还会生成新的神经元。但无论如何，大脑的可塑性在人生的每个阶段都是真实存在的。

Steven: I also wonder about habit formation. So, you said there that some of the more sort of startling stimuluses, like fear, are great ways, and and obsessive sort of deep focus are great ways to start forming these new behavior patterns. But, if I want to break a habit, because there’s habits I’ve got in my life that I’ve kind of just told myself are who I am, and accordingly, I’ve just kind of accepted them,

史蒂文: 我也对习惯的养成很感兴趣。你说过，一些更强烈的刺激，例如恐惧，以及强迫性的深度专注，都是培养新行为模式的好方法。但如果我想改掉一个坏习惯，因为我生活中有一些已经根深蒂固的习惯，我已经告诉自己这就是我，我已经接受了它们，

Andrew: Well, you’ve been very successful. So, yeah.

安德鲁: 嗯，你已经非常成功了，所以……

Steven: But, even we, all, there’s all thing, thank you, but there’s many things I’d still, I’ve just accepted. It’s part of who I am. Some of those come from my childhood. So, one of them is that I grew up in a very disorganized home, where like the doors inside my house had holes in them. And our house, there was like some rooms that looked like a hoarder lived there. Just piles and piles of stuff to the roof. Um, house de demolished in many respects. Like the back of the garden was six foot high. It was, it was mess. So, I’ve grown up with mess. And I’m therefore, still pretty messy today. And it’s something I’ve always wanted to defeat. But, I just, sometimes I tell myself, “Well it you know, it was hardwired into me when I was a kid. And it it is just who I am.” And a lot of people go around saying that, that they’ve just kind of identified with and accepted a certain bad habit, as part of who they are.

史蒂文: 但是，即使是这样，谢谢你，我仍然接受了许多事情，它们已经成为了我的一部分。其中一些习惯来自于我的童年。我是在一个非常混乱的家庭环境中长大的，我家的门上到处都是洞，有些房间里堆满了各种各样的东西，一直堆到屋顶。我的家在很多方面都很破败，后花园里的杂草甚至长到六英尺高。总之，我的家非常混乱，我就是在这样的环境中长大的。所以，我至今仍然是一个不爱整洁的人。我一直想要改掉这个坏习惯，但我总是告诉自己：“这是我从小养成的习惯，它已经成为了我的一部分。”很多人都会这样说，他们已经认同并接受了某些坏习惯，认为它们是自身的一部分。

Andrew: Well, I will say that some of the most brilliant people I know, had terribly messy offices. And they were very internally organized people. Was kind of interesting. They were like a laser beam in their ability to kind of sort through mess. They didn’t see the mess. In fact, my postdoc advisor, who also, sadly, passed away, an incredible human by the name of Ben Barres, used to walk into his office, and there’d just be piles of stuff everywhere. And I’d say, “Ben, I I think we should clean your office.” And he’d say, “Don’t touch anything, because if you move anything, I won’t know where it is.” And I said, “How could you possibly know where anything is right now?” And he say, “I know where everything is.” And so, I think some people also, by growing up in or being in that environment, also maintain an uncanny ability to find things. Whereas, I’m the sort of person where I can’t do any work until everything is cleared away. And so, um, I see myself as on the weaker side of this ability.

安德鲁: 嗯，我认识的一些非常聪明的人，他们的办公室非常凌乱，但他们内心非常有条理。这很有趣，他们就像一束激光，能够在混乱中找到他们想要的东西。他们对混乱视而不见。事实上，我的博士后导师，一位名叫本·巴雷斯的人，他已经不幸去世了，他是一位非常了不起的人。他的办公室里总是堆满了各种各样的东西。我会对他说：“本，我认为我们应该清理一下你的办公室。”他会说：“不要碰任何东西，如果你移动了任何东西，我就找不到它了。”我问他：“你怎么可能知道现在每样东西都在哪里？”他会说：“我知道它们都在哪里。”所以，我认为有些人，因为在混乱的环境中长大，或者习惯了这样的环境，所以他们拥有在混乱中找到东西的神奇能力。而我则不同，除非我把所有东西都清理干净，否则我无法专心工作。所以，我认为我在这方面的能力比较弱。

Um, but to your question, I think stories are very powerful and very dangerous. Stories are the way that humans organize knowledge, by and large, right? We don’t tend to organize things into lists. We have these narratives that we call stories. Because, from a young age, we learn things not just by hearing them and seeing them, but they are compartmentalized into narratives that have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Sometimes they have a, uh, kind of a crescendo and then a relaxation. Just think about a childhood song of learning, like the ABCs. They don’t teach you the ABCs, “A, B, C, D, E, E, F, G, H, I, J”, right? They don’t do that. What do they do? They give you a song, which is a story. Musicians will understand this inherently. Again, I’m not one, but when I started researching neuroscience of music in the brain, came to understand. So, it’s “A, B, C, D, E, F, G”, right? The change in the inflection, as one does the alphabet as a young kid, is the story of the alphabet. Now, people might say, “Okay, what is he talking about? What’s happening here?” Is you create variation, in terms of batching of ideas, so that something has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

嗯，对于你的问题，我认为故事既强大又危险。人类通常通过故事来组织知识，我们不会把知识整理成清单，而是用故事来叙述它们。因为从很小的时候起，我们学习事物不仅仅是通过听和看，而是将它们组织成有开头、中间和结尾的故事。有些故事还会呈现出起伏的节奏。例如，想想我们小时候学习字母的儿歌，他们不会直接教你“A，B，C，D，E，F，G”，而是用一首儿歌来帮助你记忆。音乐家天生就明白这一点，我虽然不是音乐家，但当我开始研究大脑中的音乐神经科学时，我理解了这一点。所以，字母歌“A，B，C，D，E，F，G”，通过语调的变化，将字母表变成了一个故事。人们可能会问：“他在说什么？这到底是怎么回事？”其实，我们是在通过不同的方式组织信息，让它们拥有开头、中间和结尾，从而形成一个完整的故事。

So, if you think, “Okay, I grew up in this house, and it was really messy. And now I have too much mess. And in order to undo that, there’s this kind of like hardwired”, right? Dangerous words, “hardwired neural circuitry in my brain that I would have to work really, really hard, undo. And I’d have to be scared into being a cleaner person, or you, I’m a tidier person,” whatever it is, that’s very dangerous. Because, there’s a beginning to that, a middle to that, and an end to that. And it has immense meaning as a consequence. One of the most powerful things is to understand that neuroplasticity really involves taking an existing story, and dismantling some component of it. What could the component be? Well, there’s all this stuff like the Byron Katie work, which says, you know, you you take something that you believe as true, and you say, “Okay, like uh like, ‘I’m an untidy person.’” And then, you counter it. “How do I know that? Well, okay, I have this experience. Okay, that’s the story.” And then, you start running counter narratives. You say, “I’m uh, I’m uh, actually a tidy person.” And then people say, “Well, this is silly, you’re just lying to yourself.” Right? Where they say, “Is it always true that you’re a messy person?” You start challenging this story from different sides. Now, I believe, as, because I’m a neuroscientist, I’m not, um, in, I’m not a psychologist, or in the self-help world, that the brilliance, the kind of unconscious genius of that approach, is actually that what one is doing is you’re starting to create a new story. You’re starting to kind of infuse different questions into the existing neural network. Now, the brain loves questions. Like the the brain, since we’re we’re young kids, we’re asking questions. And so, if you take an existing story, and you start challenging it with questions, you’re not saying lie to yourself. You’re not suddenly going to say, “Okay, like, I’m super tidy.” You’re not, because you’re not going to believe that. But, if you start challenging why it’s that way, or you know, you’ve been able to change so many other things, why you wouldn’t you be able to change that? You say, “It’s just a habit. I can’t do it.” You say, “Well, what’s a habit?” And you start poking and pushing, and pushing. What you eventually arrive at, is this kind of, “Huh, actually, there’s nothing keeping me from being a tidy person, except this kind of fluency of a particular story.” What you’ve done, is you’ve interrupted the fluency of that story. So, then when you go to the behavior of, you know, do you set things down all over the place? Or do you put them in an orderly fashion? You start interrupting the habit, the fluency of your typical behavior.

所以，如果你想：“我是在一个混乱的家庭环境中长大的，所以我也是一个不爱整洁的人。想要改变这一点，就必须改变我大脑中 hardwired 的神经回路，这需要付出巨大的努力。我必须强迫自己成为一个更爱干净的人，或者一个更整洁的人。”这种想法非常危险，因为它已经成为了你心中根深蒂固的故事。想要改变现状，最有效的方法就是理解神经可塑性，它实际上就是改变现有的故事，并拆解它的某些部分。如何拆解它呢？我们可以参考拜伦·凯蒂的方法，她说，你需要把你认为是真实的事情说出来，例如：“我是一个不爱整洁的人。”然后，你反驳它：“我怎么知道我就是这样的人呢？我只是有过这样的经历，但这只是一个故事。”然后，你开始讲述相反的故事：“我其实是一个很整洁的人。”人们可能会说：“这太荒谬了，你只是在自欺欺人。”或者他们会问你：“你总是这样不爱整洁吗？”你开始从不同的角度质疑这个故事。作为一名神经科学家，我认为，这种方法的精妙之处在于，它实际上是在创造一个新的故事。你开始向现有的神经网络中注入不同的问题。我们的大脑喜欢问题，从我们还是孩童的时候起，我们就一直在问问题。所以，当你开始用问题挑战一个现有的故事时，你并不是在自欺欺人，你不会突然说：“我是一个非常整洁的人。”因为你并不相信这一点。但如果你开始质疑它为什么是这样的，或者你已经成功地改变了许多其他的习惯，为什么你不能改变这个习惯呢？你说：“这只是一个习惯，我无法改变它。”你可以问自己：“什么是习惯？”然后不断地追问，不断地挑战它。你最终会意识到：“其实，没有什么能够阻止我成为一个整洁的人，除了这个根深蒂固的故事。”你所做的，就是打破了这个故事的流畅性。所以，当你再次面临选择时，你是会把东西到处乱放，还是会把它们整齐地摆放好？你开始打破旧的习惯，改变你一贯的行为模式。

So, I raised this as a as a way, um, to kind of shine light on essentially what I do in my podcast career, which is, you know, we, I I believe very strongly in the fields of psychology. I think self-help has some wonderful things to offer. We’ve got ancient wisdom that goes way back. And when you start to look at things through the lens of biology, you start to see that all of these things actually have merit, and they’re just different paths to the same outcomes. So, if you want to become a tidy person, I would encourage you, here would be one, let’s just say neuroscience-supported approach, would be to write out one page about what a tidy person you really are. You’ll know that’s a lie, right? And then, to look at it, and realize that in many ways if you just replac tidy with, you know, messy at any location, it’d probably be the exact same story. And so, what you’re really talking about here, is just a def fault that your nervous system is running. And if you were to just swap the words, would you feel differently? Or do differently? On the one hand, you’d say no, that’s kind of trivial. But, I bet you, the practice of writing it out would forever interrupt your notion of like, just going to set something down. You’d be like, “Ah”. Now you have something to kind of disrupt the habit. Because, so much of habit disruption that you’ll look, like some people say, “Oh, you flick a, a, you know, rubber band on your wrist or something like that.” There’s nothing special about the rubber band. There’s nothing special about the pain on your wrist, or the you put a sticky note. We know sticky notes work for about one day. Why don’t sticky notes work? Why don’t reminders on the mirror work? Because, they don’t have enough salience. They’re not new, they’re not different. The nervous system only changes if something is new and different.

我之所以提出这一点，是为了解释我在播客节目中所做的事情。我非常相信心理学的力量，我认为自助方法可以为人们提供很多帮助，其中包含了许多古老的智慧。当你开始从生物学的角度看待事物时，你就会发现，所有这些方法都有其价值，它们只是通往相同结果的不同路径。如果你想成为一个整洁的人，我建议你尝试一种神经科学支持的方法，那就是写一页关于你是一个多么整洁的人的文章。你当然知道这只是一个谎言。然后，你再读一遍这篇文章，你会发现，如果你把“整洁”替换成“凌乱”，整个故事仍然成立。所以，你所描述的，只是一个你神经系统的默认设置。如果你只是简单地替换了这两个词，你会因此而改变你的感受和行为吗？你可能会说：“不，这太简单了，根本不起作用。”但我相信，写下这篇文章的过程会让你在下次想要随意乱放东西的时候产生犹豫，你会想：“啊，我应该把东西放好。”这样你就拥有了打破旧习惯的工具。我们经常会使用一些方法来帮助自己打破坏习惯，例如有些人会在手腕上弹橡皮筋。其实，橡皮筋本身并没有什么特别之处，你手腕上的疼痛也没有什么特别之处，你贴在镜子上的便利贴也一样。我们知道，便利贴的有效期只有一两天。为什么便利贴不起作用？为什么写在镜子上的提醒不起作用？因为它们不够突出，不够新颖，也不够独特。只有当神经系统遇到新奇的事物时才会发生改变。

So anyway, we could talk a lot about habit formation, but fear works, but so does disrupting the story. How do you disrupt the story? You essentially give the opposite story. And you think, “Well, that’s just lying to myself.” But, neurally, it makes sense, because the nervous system, again, likes to be very economical, likes to do everything with the minimum amount of, uh, energetic expenditure. And to change anything, requires attention. And attention is expensive.

所以，关于习惯的养成，我们可以聊很多，但恐惧是一种有效的方法，打破故事也是一种有效的方法。如何打破故事呢？你只需要讲述相反的故事。你可能会想：“这只是自欺欺人。”但从神经学的角度来看，这是有道理的，因为神经系统喜欢节俭，它喜欢用最少的能量消耗来完成所有事情。而任何改变都需要注意力，而注意力是需要付出代价的。

Steven: Attention is expensive. And also, I would say, as I’m kind of rambling all this, things are going very well for you. So, you actually don’t have any reason to tidy your space. I have PA now, and another PA, and I have a cleaner. So, it’s, do you know what I mean? The, yeah, you outsource it.

史蒂文: 注意力是宝贵的。而且，你现在已经非常成功了，你没有必要自己去整理房间。你已经有私人助理了，还有清洁工。你明白我的意思吗？你把这些事情外包出去了。

Andrew: Yeah, great. Well, there is incentive for all the folks that feel like they’re not, um, tidy enough. You have two choices. You can either start to be tidy now, or you can be successful enough that you can hire some assistants. And I actually think, I say this in, with in all seriousness, I think that one has to ask, like, “Where is my attention, and neural real estate, best devoted?” I think about this every day. I mean we are living in a war of attention. I wake up in the morning, and I can be a consumer or a creator. If I reach for my phone, I’m a consumer. If I go to my journal, I’m a creator.

安德鲁: 是的，这很好。对于那些觉得自己不够整洁的人来说，这是一种激励。你有两种选择：你现在就开始变得整洁，或者你努力获得成功，然后雇人帮你整理房间。我完全认真地告诉你，我认为每个人都应该问问自己：“我的注意力，我宝贵的神经资源，应该投入到哪里？”我每天都在思考这个问题。我们生活在一个注意力被争夺的时代。每天早上醒来，我可以选择做一个信息的消费者，或者一个信息的创造者。如果我拿起手机，我就是一个信息的消费者；如果我去写日记，我就是一个信息的创造者。

My advice to anyone who wants to be successful in any domain, is to do things away from where you broadcast. And then, take it to that broadcast. I mean, take your real life to Instagram, and be very cautious about taking Instagram to your real life. Does that make sense? If you look at successful people, they’re doing things away from the platforms, and putting them on the platforms.

我给所有想要在任何领域取得成功的人的建议是，在远离社交媒体的地方做事情，然后把成果分享到社交媒体上。我的意思是，把你的真实生活带到 Instagram 上，但不要把 Instagram 带到你的真实生活中。这有道理吗？那些成功人士，他们都是在远离社交媒体的地方默默耕耘，然后把他们的成果分享到社交媒体上。

Steven: Yeah.

史蒂文: 是的。

Andrew: So, I have to be very careful. Then, I go into the kitchen. Obviously, I talk to people in my home, um, but if I pick up the phone, and I start making a phone call, it’s like, “Is this call really about moving the needle forward? Or is this just kind of like passive use of of attention?” We have to be so careful nowadays. So so careful.

安德鲁: 所以，我必须非常谨慎。然后，我走进厨房，我会和家人聊天。但如果我拿起手机打电话，我会问自己：“这通电话真的能够推动事情发展吗？还是我只是在被动地消耗注意力？”我们现在必须非常小心地使用我们的注意力，非常小心。

Steven: It’s really challenging. On that point of focus and attention, and thinking back to when you were 19 years old, one of the things people ask me a lot, and I guess it’s a bit of a debate in the self-help world, is from a neuroscience perspective, is manifestation, and this idea of like visualization. Visualizing who I want to become, and you know, where I’m going. Is there any neuroscience to support that that works?

史蒂文: 这真的很有挑战性。关于专注力和注意力，以及回想到你 19 岁的时候，人们经常问我一个问题，我猜这在自助领域存在一些争议。从神经科学的角度来看，manifestation 以及视觉化的概念，也就是想象我想成为什么样的人，我想去哪里，这种方法真的有效吗？有没有神经科学依据来支持这种方法？

Andrew: There is. Um, and I’m not trying to be negative, but I’ll start with the negative counter-example, for which there is evidence, and it’s less often discussed. So, there’s a wonderful researcher at New York University by the name of Emily Balcetis, who talks about how, for goal setting and habit formation, fear setting is of often one of the best tools. You spend some time, maybe five minutes or so, thinking about all the terrible things that are going to happen if you don’t actually accomplish your goals. Nobody likes to do this. But, guess what, it turns out to be pretty darn effective. Really, I know. It’s really frustrating that this is the case, but again, you know, that has a lot to do with the way that the human brain is is wired and and likes to rewire itself.

安德鲁: 是的，有神经科学依据。我并不是要否定这种方法，但我想先从一个负面的反例开始，它有证据支持，但很少被讨论。纽约大学有一位非常优秀的研究员，名叫艾米丽·巴尔塞蒂斯，她认为，对于目标设定和习惯养成来说，恐惧设定通常是最有效的工具之一。你花一些时间，例如五分钟左右，想象所有那些如果你没有实现目标就会发生的可怕的事情。没有人喜欢这样做，但事实证明，这种方法非常有效。我知道，这听起来很令人沮丧，但这与人脑的运作机制以及它喜欢重塑自身的方式有关。

Now, that said, it is important to envision goals, visualizing goals in detail, um, writing them out, in some cases talking about them, although we can discuss that, um, why that might not be the best idea in every circumstance, and could be very beneficial. Because, it’s hard to conceive something that you can’t imagine. But, I think when people hear that visualizing goals or visualizing outcomes is critical, we sometimes forget that we don’t always know what the end goal is. Sometimes, we have to break this up into milestones. This is where I think, uh, Rick Rubin, even though he’s not a formally trained scientist, um, has drawn a lot of interest for his work on creativity, which is you know, Rick is about, largely, you know, sensing the kind of energetic pull of an idea, and being able to explore that without too much self- judgment or filtering, or thinking about how it’s going to be received. In other words, that the metamorphosis that leads to great music, great poetry, great scientific discovery, podcasts, finance companies that one is building, etc., is a series of iterations that occur on the time course of about a day, you know? And so, we can’t always imagine the end, or the end product as the outcome. This is why I said university is easy compared to other goals, because the end is a degree, right? Say you pick up your diploma like, whereas, in other areas it’s far more mysterious often.

话虽如此，想象目标，详细地想象目标，写下目标，在某些情况下与他人谈论目标，这些都是非常重要的，尽管我们可以讨论一下，为什么这在某些情况下可能不是最好的方法，但在其他情况下可能非常有益。因为，我们很难构想我们无法想象的事物。但我认为，当人们听到视觉化目标或视觉化结果非常重要的时候，我们往往会忘记，我们并不总是知道最终的目标是什么。有时，我们需要将目标分解成一个个里程碑。这就是我认为里克·鲁宾，虽然他不是一名训练有素的科学家，但他对创造力的研究之所以引起广泛关注的原因。里克擅于感知一个想法的 energetic pull，并能够在不带任何评判或过滤的情况下探索它，也不去考虑它会被如何接受。换句话说，那些伟大的音乐、诗歌、科学发现、播客以及金融公司，等等，它们的诞生都是通过一系列的迭代来实现的，这通常需要花费一天的时间。所以，我们不能总是把最终目标或最终产品想象成最终的结果。这就是为什么我说，与其他目标相比，大学的目标更容易实现，因为它有一个明确的终点，那就是获得学位。例如，你最终会拿到毕业证书，而在其他领域，最终的结果往往更加难以预测。

Now, visualization I think can be very powerful, but perhaps what’s more powerful is to learn the brain and body state that best serves the work you’re going to do. So, for instance, if I’m going to do some writing, and right now I’m working on a book, it’s largely done, but I’m writing some bonus chapters. Unless I’m hyper-motivated to do that, when I sit down, and hyper-focused, I’ll spend two, three minutes just closing my eyes, focusing on my breathing. It’s meditation of sorts. But, what I tell myself is, “If I can’t focus on my breathing for two or three minutes, how in the world am I going to focus on writing for two or three hours?” That sort of thing.

我认为视觉化是一种非常有效的方法，但也许更有效的方法是学习最适合你工作的脑力和身体状态。例如，如果我要写作，我现在正在写一本书，它已经基本完成了，但我正在写一些额外的章节。除非我非常有动力去做这件事，否则当我坐下来，准备集中精力写作的时候，我会花两三分钟的时间闭上眼睛，专注于我的呼吸。这是一种冥想。我会告诉自己：“如果我无法专注于我的呼吸两三分钟，我又怎么可能专注于写作两三个小时呢？”诸如此类。

The other thing that I want to make sure I don’t forget, is I mentioned that telling people your goals oftentimes can be useful if it stimulates a little bit of fear, like you have some accountability. But, we also know that because of the affiliative nature of people, in particular people that support us, there is this danger. Uh, a friend of mine, who’s a cardiologist at UCSF, taught me this. He said, “You know, be careful who you tell that you’re going to start a podcast or write a book, because oftentimes, the response will be, ‘Oh yeah, that’s great. You absolutely should write a book. Or, you should do a podcast.’ And people get a sort of reward from telling people about it, and then they never actually go do it.” Whereas, I can cite numerous examples of where people were told, “You’re never going to be able to do that. You’re never going to be able to be successful in that.” And my goodness, those people dig their heels, and they show that they can do it. Now, I get into debates about this with Rick from time to time. It’s a, you know, it’s unclear to me whether or not the energy around trying to prove oneself is detrimental to the outcome, and I sense it is, right? This kind of grinding against, “Take that, and take that”, as opposed to just doing things out of real love of craft.

另一件我不想忘记的事情是，我提到过告诉别人你的目标有时会很有用，尤其是当它带来一些恐惧感，比如你感到有责任心的时候。然而，我们也知道，由于人们天生具有的亲和力，特别是那些支持我们的人，这其中也有一定的风险。比如，我有个朋友是UCSF的心脏病专家，他告诉过我：“要小心告诉别人你打算开始做播客或者写书，因为很多时候，别人会说，‘哦，那太棒了。你绝对应该写一本书，或者你应该做一个播客。’ 然后，人们从告诉别人这件事中获得了一种满足感，结果却从未真正去做。” 与此相反，我可以举出很多例子，有些人被告知“你永远做不到这一点，你永远不会成功”，结果他们却更加努力，最终证明了自己。然而，我时不时会和Rick争论这件事。关于通过证明自己来驱动能量是否对结果有害，这一点我还不确定，我感觉这种方式有可能是有害的，因为它带有一种对抗心理，而不是单纯出于对工艺的热爱。

I think about the way I felt about aquaria, and fish, as a kid. And it’s just like pure delight. That’s the word that comes to mind, just delight. “I want to learn more about it, I want to do it, and tell people about it.” That’s the wonderful romantic picture of effort and progress and outcomes. But, in reality, you probably need both. You need to be able to access some fear, and sense of competition, but also delight in craft.

我想起我小时候对水族馆和鱼类的那种感觉，那是一种纯粹的喜悦，我只想了解更多关于它们的知识，想要饲养它们，并与他人分享我的经验。这是一种关于努力、进步和成果的美好愿景。但在现实生活中，你可能两者都需要，你需要一些恐惧感和竞争意识，同时也需要对技艺的热爱。

You know like Peter Thiel’s book, Zero to One, as I recall, defines competition as anti-creativity in many ways. Because, through competition, you are, by definition, changing what you’re doing in order to outdo somebody else, or something else. And so, you’re morphing your creation in order to kind of overcome something something. Whereas, if you’re just purely thinking about something you want to grow and cultivate, they’re none of those barriers. But, in the worlds that I’ve been in, science to a lesser extent, podcasting, and that’s a wonderful feature of podcasting. But, certainly in science, it is hyper-co competitive, right? Two laboratories working on similar things, people are concerned that if one publishes first, the other will not be able to publish, certainly not in as high-quality a journal. And jobs are created through these journal publications.

我记得彼得·蒂尔的《从 0 到 1》一书中，将竞争定义为一种反创造力的行为。因为在竞争中，你为了胜过他人，不得不改变你正在做的事情，你为了克服某些东西而改变了你最初的创意。而如果你只是单纯地想要创造和培养某些东西，就不会有这些障碍。但我所处的世界，无论是科学界还是播客界，竞争都非常激烈，尤其是在科学界。两个实验室研究类似的课题，人们担心如果一个实验室率先发表了论文，另一个实验室就无法发表论文，至少无法在同等水平的期刊上发表论文。而工作机会往往取决于你在哪些期刊上发表了论文。

Podcasting is actually a wonderful field, um, because let’s say you and I have the same guest on our podcast, all it does is raise it in the algorithm. It’s not like, you know, and and it’s such a, and so, I think there’s a lot of, um, collegiality and camaraderie in the podcast field that, um, exists in little pockets in science. But, um, science is a brutally competitive field, which doesn’t mean it’s anti-creative. But, in a dream world, where there’s infinite amount of money for scientific research, because that would better humanity in my, in my view. Um, and people didn’t have to be competitive about grant dollars, or publication, I think we would make far more progress as a species. So, competition fosters outcomes. This is clear in markets, it’s clear in a lot of domains, but pure love and delight of craft and creativity, that’s definitely the way to go. But, in most endeavors, you got to have both.

播客其实是一个很棒的领域，因为即使你和我都在我们的播客节目中邀请了同一位嘉宾，它也只是会提升算法的排名，而不会对我们造成任何负面影响。我认为，播客领域充满了合作和友谊，这在科学界是很少见的。科学界是一个竞争异常激烈的领域，这并不意味着它扼杀了创造力。但在一个理想的世界里，如果我们拥有无限的科研资金，人类社会将会变得更加美好。如果人们不必为了科研经费和论文发表而竞争，我认为人类将会取得更大的进步。所以，竞争会带来成果，这在市场和其他领域都很明显。但纯粹的对技艺和创造力的热爱，才是我们应该追求的目标。但在大多数情况下，我们都需要两者兼顾。

If sitting next to someone in class, and realizing, “Okay”, because this was me, back when I’m thinking, “Okay, I I love this topic. But, gosh, I want that top mark. I want that top mark on the distribution.” Like, that’s, and and like, she and he are really, really good, and I’m gna, we’re going to study together, but my God, when it comes time for that exam, like, I’m going for it. A little bit of competition can can bring out our our best I think, um, certainly in sport. But, when it comes to creative endeavors that are really about our own unique contribution, I mean, you could tell me more about this in business, because you’re you’re, I don’t, you know, I have a company, but I’m not a business person. But, I I always feel like competition can bring out more energy, but not more creativity.

如果我坐在课堂上某个人的旁边，并且意识到，我当时就是这样想的：“我喜欢这个主题，但我想要获得最高分，我想要在成绩分布图上拿到最高分。”就像，他们真的很优秀，我们要一起学习，但在考试的时候，我会全力以赴，争取超过他们。我认为，适度的竞争可以激发出我们最大的潜能，尤其是在体育运动中。但在那些需要我们做出独特贡献的创造性领域，你可能更了解商业领域的情况，因为你，我虽然拥有一家公司，但我并不是一个商人。但我始终认为，竞争可以激发我们的能量，但不会激发我们的创造力。

Steven: Yeah, and I think a big point I was thinking, as you were talking, was just about how much you let that new energy that comes from competition distract you. And this is, it’s the distraction that can destroy you. Because, if Apple are going this way, and they’re building this product without the keyboard, and without the stylus, and that’s, they’ve got their vision. Then, they see Samsung doing, over there, something over there. And if they, if they divert from their own mission and their own first principles, towards what someone else are doing, then that’s when it can become destructive. But, if it means that they see Samsung doing something, and they speed up and invest more in their vision, then it’s okay. I think that’s, and it is this dichotomy, between competition does drive better outcomes for everybody that’s competing. But, at the same time, um, yeah, it can harm you if it distracts you in a fundamental way. It’s kind of how I think about it. Even with podcasting, like you know, um, as you were saying, there’s so many podcasts is doing so many amazing things. Like, I, I look at your podcast, and I learn from it. But, I know in my cor, we all know, I’m never going to be Andrew Huberman, and I’ll never be you, and I’ll never be a Joe Rogan, I’ll never be a Lex. And I admire your podcast very much, and Joe’s, and Lex’s. I think it’s, we each have our own unique style that we bring to it. Chris Williamson, you know, um, it’s been a lot of fun to see the unique flavors of podcasts crop up, and how similar that is to the world I grew up in, in skateboard ing, the observations of, from the music industry that I saw firsthand, or that you know Rick has passed along.

史蒂文: 是的，我认为你刚才所说的一个重点是，来自竞争的能量会在多大程度上分散你的注意力。这种分心是致命的。例如，如果苹果公司坚持他们的愿景，正在开发一款没有键盘和手写笔的产品，然后他们看到三星公司在做其他的事情，如果他们因此而偏离了他们最初的使命和原则，去模仿别人的做法，那将会给他们带来灾难性的后果。但如果他们看到三星公司的举动后，加快了研发速度，并投入更多资源到他们自己的愿景中，那将会是一件好事。我认为这就是竞争的两面性：竞争会促使每个人取得更好的结果，但同时，如果它从根本上分散了你的注意力，它也会伤害你。即使是在播客领域，正如你所说，有许多播客节目都做得非常出色。我关注你的播客节目，并且从中学习了很多东西。但我知道，我永远不会成为安德鲁·胡伯曼，也永远不会成为乔·罗根，或者莱克斯。我非常欣赏你的播客节目，以及乔和莱克斯的节目。我认为，每个播客节目都有其独特的风格。克里斯·威廉姆森的节目也很有特色，看到各种风格的播客节目涌现出来，这让我感到非常欣慰。这与我从小接触的滑板文化，以及我从音乐行业观察到的现象非常相似。

You know, in the end, I think any creative endeavor is really about, and here I don’t want to sound mysterious or woo, it’s about the energy that we bring. It’s about taking our life history, and bringing it to that thing in whatever form. We don’t even need to tell people our life history, taking our unique wiring and bringing it to that thing. And we can, again, look at things through the lens of biology, and say, “Well, what are we talking talking about when we’re talking about energy? What is this energy thing that people are talking about?” Um, and I think it largely boils down to these catac colomines, the dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail that is setting the brain into a mode of attention of motivation. We now know dopamine is more about motivation to seek rewards, as opposed to feeling of pleasure or reward. There’s a lot to be said about that. And keep in mind that these three neurochemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine, have been the neurochemical cocktail by which humans, and other mammals, have set and pursued goals for hundreds of thousands of years. So, we don’t have like a unique system, a unique neurochemical system for seeking out of mates, versus food, versus creating shelter, versus creating technology, and whole societies. And it’s not just these three neurochemicals, certainly there are other things involved, acetal choline, and you know, a bunch of other things, neuroplasticity for that matter. But, it’s clearly the case that the currency that the brain has set around getting us into forward center of mass, as I say, to like envision something, explore. “Nope, not down there, this way. Ah, there’s a scent here.” And trade out an actual scent for, you know, “Oh, there’s something interesting here. There’s someone interesting here,” and like exploring that. “No, that’s a dead path too. C, theack, turn around, go. Oh,” and then connecting these nodes of progress. What’s progress? “Ah, there’s kind of another surge of these catac colam meines,” which sets us in forward center of mass.

我认为，任何创造性的努力，都与我们自身的能量有关。我不想说得太玄乎，但这确实是关于我们自身能量的体现。我们需要回顾我们的人生经历，并将其融入到我们的创作中。我们不需要告诉别人我们的人生经历，只需要将我们独特的 wiring 融入到我们的作品中。我们可以再次从生物学的角度来解释这个问题：“我们所说的能量到底是什么？人们所说的能量到底指的是什么？”我认为，它主要指的是儿茶酚胺，包括多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素，它们会让大脑进入注意力和动力的模式。我们现在知道，多巴胺更多的是关于寻求奖励的动力，而不是快乐或奖励的感觉。关于这一点有很多可以讨论的地方。要知道，这三种神经化学物质，多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素，是人类和其他哺乳动物在过去几十万年里用来设定和追求目标的“鸡尾酒”。所以，我们的大脑中并没有一个专门用于寻找配偶、食物、住所，或者创造技术和社会的独特系统。当然，除了这三种神经化学物质之外，还有其他的物质参与其中，例如乙酰胆碱等等，以及神经可塑性。但可以肯定的是，大脑会利用这些物质来驱动我们前进，就像我所说的，去想象、去探索。“不，不是那边，是这边。啊，这里有线索。”然后我们会用实际的线索来代替它：“哦，这里有一些有趣的东西，这里有一些有趣的人。”然后我们会继续探索：“不，这条路也走不通。后退，转身，走。哦。”然后我们将这些进步的节点连接起来。什么是进步？“啊，又一次的儿茶酚胺 surge，”它会让我们继续前进。

You know, I don’t want to oversimplify the biology, but when we talk about energy, um, for instance, taking time to rest at night, sleep. Taking time to maybe meditate a few minutes, or do this practice that I’m a huge fan of, non-sleep deep rest, which is kind of a body scan, deep relaxation, long exhales. It’s a practice very similar to an ancient practice called yoga nidra, which has been practiced for thousands of years. It’s a kind of pseudo sleep. And we know from a really nice study that NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, AKA yoga nidra, can increase the baseline levels of dopamine in a brain area called the basil ganglia, which is for action generation, and also withholding action, by about 60% from baseline. Just a a short period of doing this practice, can re, kind of re dopamine levels to a considerable extent. It’s a remarkable study, and there others like it.

我不想过度简化生物学，但当我们谈论能量的时候，例如，花时间在晚上休息，睡觉，花时间冥想几分钟，或者做一种我非常喜欢的练习，叫做非睡眠深度休息，它是一种身体扫描，深度放松，长时间呼气。这种练习与一种叫做瑜伽休息术的古老练习非常相似，瑜伽休息术已经流传了几千年，它是一种 pseudo 睡眠。我们从一项非常好的研究中得知，NSDR，也就是非睡眠深度休息，或者说瑜伽休息术，可以将大脑基底神经节的多巴胺基线水平提高大约 60%，基底神经节是大脑中负责生成动作和抑制动作的区域。仅仅进行一小段时间的这种练习，就可以在很大程度上重新调整多巴胺水平。这是一项非常棒的研究，还有其他类似的研究。

So, what does that mean? Well, it means that in rest, we build up this capacity to be forward center of mass when we emerge from rest. That’s why I think we have to sleep every 24 hours. This is why practices where we deliberately calm ourselves, and still ourselves, allow us to be more forward center of mass mentally and physically afterwards. It’s kind of a duh when we hear it. We kind of go, “Oh, duh, of course, rest action, rest action.” But, there’s a lot more to it, if you start exploring the layers. You start realizing that excitement for things, um, versus burnout. What’s burnout? It’s just trying to be forward center of mass for too long. It’s, you know, misuse of our dopamine circuitry. It’s you know ignoring the fact that these catamin, and dopamine in particular, they are not infinite in their availability, right? There’s a reservoir of them that can be depleted, but it can be rep replenished as well.

那么，这意味着什么呢？这意味着，在休息的时候，我们积累了能量，以便在休息结束后能够更加专注和高效。这就是为什么我认为我们每 24 小时都需要睡觉。这就是为什么那些让我们平静下来的练习，例如冥想，能够让我们在练习结束后，在精神和身体上都更加充满活力。这听起来可能很简单，我们会想：“哦，当然，休息是为了更好地行动，休息是为了更好地行动。”但如果你深入研究，就会发现更多的东西。你会开始意识到，对事物的兴奋与倦怠之间的区别。什么是倦怠？它就是长时间保持高度兴奋的状态，是对多巴胺回路的过度使用。这是因为我们忽视了这样一个事实：儿茶酚胺，尤其是多巴胺，它们的数量是有限的。它们就像一个可以被耗尽的水库，但它也可以被重新补充。

And one of the best analogies for this, um, was actually explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle Gillett. He does some online work as a as a, um, public facing physician, endocrinology in particular. And he said, “But, dopamine, it’s kind of like a wave pool.” You have this reservoir that can allow you to pursue things, or scroll the internet, or build businesses, whatever it is. If you are really forward center of mass, very intensely, you start generating these waves. And if you get big waves of dopamine, and they crash out of the pool, you start depleting the reservoir. So, when I think about drugs of abuse, like cocaine, which leads to huge surges in dopamine, or, um, amphetamines, huge surges and dopamine, what do we know about huge surges and dopamine? Well, after those huge surges, you drop below your initial baseline, to a state in which the same thing doesn’t feel as good anymore. You need so much more energy to get the same output. That’s what this is, right? That’s what this is.

有一个很好的类比，是一位名叫凯尔·吉列特的医生告诉我的，他是一位内分泌学家，也做一些面向公众的在线科普工作。他说：“多巴胺就像一个波浪池。”你体内有一个“水库”，它可以让你追求事物、浏览互联网、建立企业，等等。如果你总是处于高度兴奋的状态，你就会在这个“水库”里制造出巨大的波浪。如果你过度使用多巴胺，让这些波浪冲出“水库”，你就会开始耗尽“水库”里的“水”。所以，当我想到那些滥用药物，例如可卡因和安非他命，它们会导致多巴胺大量 surge，我们对多巴胺的大量 surge 有什么了解呢？在这些巨大的 surge 之后，你的多巴胺水平会跌落到初始基线以下，你对事物的感受会变得迟钝，你需要更多的刺激才能获得相同的快感。这就是多巴胺过度使用后的结果。

So, I’ll put this on the screen for anyone,

所以，我会把这个图展示给大家，

Steven: Yeah.

史蒂文: 好的。

Andrew: So, my colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anna Lembke, who runs our dual diagnosis addiction clinic, and wrote the wonderful book Dopamine Nation, described this best. You know, it’s sort of like a seesaw but whereby you get a big peak in dopamine, let’s say from a drug of abuse, like cocaine. People on cocaine, it’s all about ideas, and “What’s next?” They’re not like, “Hey, let’s just kick back.” It’s all about what’s they, in fact they have a million ideas per second. Most of them are terrible ideas, but they’re very forward center of mass, motivated. And then, when the drug wears off, they feel very low, and very depressed. The dopamine is actually depleted below baseline. People that work excessively, right? We all have different abilities to work out. But, people that work excessively, and abuse stimulants in order to do that, achieve these peaks,

安德鲁: 我的同事，斯坦福大学的安娜·伦布克医生，她负责我们的双重诊断成瘾诊所，并且写了一本很棒的书《多巴胺王国》。她对这一点的描述最为精准。你知道，这就像一个跷跷板，当你使用例如可卡因这样的药物时，你的多巴胺水平会达到峰值。那些服用可卡因的人，他们会充满各种想法，“接下来做什么？”他们不会想：“嘿，让我们休息一下。”事实上，他们每秒钟都会冒出无数个想法，其中大多数都是糟糕的想法，但他们会非常兴奋，非常有动力。然后，当药效消退时，他们会感到非常沮丧，他们的多巴胺水平会跌落到初始基线以下。那些过度工作的人，我们每个人的工作能力都不同，但那些过度工作的人，为了完成工作而滥用兴奋剂的人，他们也会经历这些多巴胺的峰值和低谷，

Steven: Is that like, so, what would be the an everyday example of that, working excessively? Do you mean like a pre-workout or something? What you mean?

史蒂文: 那么，在日常生活中，过度工作的例子是什么？你是指像服用运动前补充剂之类的吗？你指的是什么？

Andrew: Yeah, I’m not anti- pre-workout. Listen, I love to be well rested, hydrated, have a nice pre-workout drink, maybe even a little shot of espresso, listen to some music, and have an incredible leg day workout. It’s an amazing feeling, right? But, if you do that every single time, you start stacking all these catac colomine release-inducing drugs. Okay? So, you’re getting adrenaline, you’re getting epinephrine, which is adrenaline, excuse me. You’re getting adrenaline, you’re getting noradrenaline, also called norepinephrine, you’re getting dopamine release, you’re highly motivated, you’re in that state that everyone is seeking, and you try and do that seven days a week, you’re not going to do it. And then, you wonder why, the afternoon, you’re just completely cooked and you can’t do any cognitive work. Well, your dopamine and other things have crashed below baseline. So, I think it’s important to understand that being, as I’m calling it, forward center of mass, like really kind of motivated and pursuing goals, is great. But, most of the time, we’re probably best off just coming off the gas pedal just a little bit, to maintain that ability to continue to be forward center of mass.

安德鲁: 是的，我并不反对运动前补充剂。我喜欢在休息好，补充水分，喝一杯运动前饮料，也许再来一小杯浓缩咖啡，听着音乐，然后进行一次酣畅淋漓的腿部训练。这是一种很棒的感觉，对吧？但如果你每次都这样做，你就会开始叠加所有这些会导致儿茶酚胺释放的物质。你会释放肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素以及多巴胺，你会非常兴奋，非常有动力，你会进入一种每个人都渴望的状态。但如果你试着每周七天都这样做，你会发现你做不到。然后，你会感到困惑，为什么到了下午，你已经筋疲力尽，无法进行任何脑力劳动。这是因为你的多巴胺和其他神经递质的水平已经跌落到初始基线以下。所以，我认为重要的是要理解，保持积极进取、追求目标的状态固然很好，但大多数时候，我们最好稍微放松一下，以保持这种积极的状态。

The same thing is true for stress. We hear, “Stress is bad.” Well, stress is bad, but it also sharpens your ability to learn. It creates energy. It actually boosts your immune system in the short term. I say, “Tolerate as much stress as you can, provided you still behave like a kind person.” Right? Don’t say or do things that are unkind, and make sure that you still get great sleep at night. Most people stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, run around, and then they can’t sleep at night, and then the next day they’re depleted. But, a little bit of stress is healthy. Life is stressed, things are stressful. But, again, you’re going to be in your best state of mind if you’re calm and alert. Alert and calm is the is the magic recipe, and the ability to sleep at night.

压力也是如此。我们经常听到人们说：“压力不好。”压力确实不好，但它也能提高你的学习能力，让你更有活力。它实际上能在短期内增强你的免疫系统。我的建议是：“尽可能多地承受压力，只要你仍然能够保持友善。”不要说或做任何不友善的事情，并确保你晚上能够睡个好觉。大多数人压力很大，他们四处奔波，然后晚上睡不着觉，

If you want to take a bunch of pre-workout, and you want to listen to some loud music and have a great, “Crush it” workout, great. But, you should probably also be able to train without all of that. If you’re somebody who loves new goals, and you you know you’re very excited about travel, and this, and that, great. But, do you have to layer in 50 things, and then you’re sitting around at home, and you’re wondering why you’re so bored when you’re back home, and why life is so depressing, and you need more travel, more stimulation? In every domain of life, we see, whether or not it’s food or exercise or stimulants, or sex, or media, if you push things to the max, you’re going to feel depleted and und stimulated afterwards. And this trough, below baseline, as Anna Lembke taught us with Dopamine Nation, that trough is a state that can last a long time, and it’s how long, it’s proportional to how high that peak and dopamine was. Not how long, but how high that peak and dopamine was. And when you’re in that trough, that dopamine-depleted state, typically what people do is they try and go out, or access things, that are going to reactivate the dopamine circuitry. And all it does, is drive them further and further, and longer and longer, into that trough. What’s needed, is a period of waiting of non-indulgent, in any of these excesses, that allows them to return to baseline. We know this from drugs of abuse. It takes more and more drug, to try and get what turns out to be less and less of a high.

如果你想服用大量的运动前补充剂，听着喧闹的音乐，然后进行一次“碾压它”的训练，这很好。但你也应该能够在没有这些东西的情况下进行训练。如果你是一个热爱新目标的人，你对旅行和其他各种新鲜事物都感到兴奋，这很好。但你没有必要同时做 50 件事情。然后你回到家，坐在那里，你会感到很无聊，你会觉得生活很 depressing，你想要去旅行，想要获得更多的刺激。在生活的各个领域，无论是食物、运动、兴奋剂、性，还是媒体，如果你过度追求刺激，你最终都会感到精疲力尽，缺乏动力。正如安娜·伦布克在《多巴胺王国》中所描述的那样，这种低于基线的低谷状态会持续很长时间，持续的时间与你之前多巴胺峰值的高度成正比，而不是峰值的持续时间。当你处于这种多巴胺耗尽的状态时，你通常会想要做一些事情来重新激活多巴胺回路。但这只会让你更加深陷于这种低谷之中。你需要做的是，克制自己，不要过度沉迷于任何事物，给自己一段休息的时间，让你的多巴胺水平恢复到正常水平。我们从滥用药物的案例中可以得知，你需要越来越多的药物，才能获得越来越少的快感。

Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured essentially through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between 30 and 60 days. Which, to somebody who’s highly motivated to seek that thing, or do that thing, sounds like an absolute horror. But, that is highly effective. So, for some people it’s work and stimulants you know, and number of people taking Adderall and work, work, work, work, work. I hear from these people all the time, typically they are from the tech and finance world. They’re like, “Why am I burnt out?” Well, you’ve been blasting these catacol amine-regulated circuits for years. You need to just accept you’re going to feel a little low for a week, then you’re going to feel a little less low, then you’re going to come back to baseline, and then, and only then, can you really get back into like full forward center of mass. But, at that point, you can introduce, you know, I I do think there is a clinical use case for certain ADHD meds, which are amphetamine. There are certain people that need those meds. Other people have driven themselves into this dopamine trough, and so they’re seeking out anything and everything to get them out of that trough, when really what they need to do is stay away from all that stuff, and just wait. Just wait.

几乎所有的成瘾行为，以及强迫性行为，都可以通过 30 到 60 天的戒断期来治愈。这对于那些高度依赖这些事物的人来说，听起来非常可怕。但这确实是一种非常有效的方法。有些人过度沉迷于工作，并且为了完成工作而滥用兴奋剂，例如服用 Adderall 然后不停地工作。我经常听到这些人说，他们通常来自科技和金融行业。他们会问：“为什么我会感到精疲力尽？”这是因为你已经过度使用了这些受儿茶酚胺调节的神经回路很多年了。你需要接受你会感到情绪低落一段时间的事实，你会感觉越来越好，最终你的多巴胺水平会恢复到正常水平，只有在那时，你才能真正地恢复到积极的状态。当然，我承认有些多动症药物，例如安非他命，有其临床应用价值，有些人确实需要服用这些药物。但有些人是因为自己把自己逼入了多巴胺低谷，所以他们会想尽一切办法来摆脱这种状态，而他们真正需要做的，是远离所有这些刺激，耐心等待，等待多巴胺水平自然恢复。

Steven: Go on holiday or something?

史蒂文: 去度假怎么样？

Andrew: Go on holiday, try and find reward in smaller things. Um, you know, this is why dogs are wonderful, in simpler things. And if that sounds heavy and dull to you, chances are you’re a bit in the dopamine, uh, loop. Um, I’ve been in these loops before. They’re hard to exit, but once you exit them, you look back on them, you go, “What was I thinking?” Well, you were in a different state. You’re kind of a different animal when you’re in pursuit.

安德鲁: 去度假，试着从一些小事中找到快乐，例如养一只狗，从简单的事情中获得快乐。如果你觉得这听起来很无聊，那你很可能已经陷入了多巴胺循环。我以前也经历过这种情况，想要跳出这个循环非常困难。但一旦你成功跳出这个循环，你回头看看，你会想：“我当时是怎么想的？”这是因为你当时处于一种不同的状态，当你追求某些事物的时候，你会变成另外一个人。

Steven: I think this is so unbelievably important, because it really helps people to understand why they do what they do. And before doing the research on you, coming here today, and before understanding some of this stuff, I thought dopamine was, I don’t know, it was this thing that came in these hits maybe. And if I did something, I got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. If I did something again, stimulating, I got ahead of it, then I returned to baseline. But, what actually is happening is, I’m doing something that’s stimulating in some way, I’m getting this huge peak, then I’m crashing below baseline for a while. And when I’m below baseline, I’m, that’s when I’m most likely to want to do something that’s going to give me a hit again.

史蒂文: 我认为这非常重要，因为它可以帮助人们理解他们行为背后的原因。在我研究你的资料，以及今天来这里之前，我对多巴胺的理解还很肤浅，我认为它是一种冲击式的东西。如果我做了一些事情，我会获得多巴胺的奖励，然后我的多巴胺水平会回到基线。如果我再次做一些刺激的事情，我的多巴胺水平会再次上升，然后再次回到基线。但实际上，当我做一些刺激的事情时，我的多巴胺水平会达到峰值，然后会跌落到基线以下，并且持续一段时间。当我的多巴胺水平低于基线时，我最有可能想要做一些事情来再次获得多巴胺的刺激。

Andrew: That’s right.

安德鲁: 没错。

Steven: And when I saw that, it reminded me of the CGI monitor, the continuous glucose monitor that I wore, because it was a very similar pattern. If I had a lot of sugar, had a big peak, then I crashed below my baseline, right?

史蒂文: 当我看到这一点时，它让我想起了我佩戴的连续血糖监测器，因为它呈现出一种非常类似的模式。如果我摄入了大量的糖，我的血糖水平会快速上升，然后会跌落到基线以下，对吧？

Andrew: That’s a great observation. It’s the perfect analogy. Perfect analogy. Because, these regulatory systems are all about trying to reg maintain homeostasis. We all hear about, we learn about homeostasis, like the desire for balance. The the the human body, and human physiology, is actually geared more towards something called allostasis, which involves kind of stress modulation. But, without getting into too many details, you know, these are dynamic systems, meaning brain systems that are designed to allow us to overcome challenges, if need be, right? This is why I always push back on the idea that, you know, “Stress crashes your immune system.” You know what crashes your immune system? Being very, very stressed, working a lot a lot, caretaking for someone else, and then stopping. You always get sick when you stop.

安德鲁: 这是一个很棒的观察结果，这是一个完美的类比，完美的类比。因为，这些调节系统都是为了维持体内平衡。我们都听说过体内平衡，也就是对平衡状态的追求。但人类的身体和生理机能，实际上更倾向于一种叫做异位调节的机制，它涉及压力调节。简单来说，这些都是动态系统，也就是说，大脑系统的设计是为了让我们能够克服各种挑战。这就是为什么我一直反对“压力会摧毁你的免疫系统”这种说法。你知道什么会摧毁你的免疫系统吗？长时间处于高压状态，过度劳累，照顾他人，然后突然停下来。当你停下来的时候，你很容易就会生病。

Steven: Yeah.

史蒂文: 是的。

Andrew: Why? Because, actually, stress activates the immune system. Makes sense that it would do that, evolutionarily, right? And then when we rest, boom, our immune system kind of relaxes a little bit, and then we succumb to that that you know, the bacteria or virus.

安德鲁: 为什么？因为压力实际上会激活免疫系统。从进化的角度来看，这是有道理的。当我们休息的时候，我们的免疫系统会稍微放松，然后我们就会更容易受到细菌或病毒的侵袭。

So, what does it mean? It means that we should probably learn to modulate. It’s like driving a car. Anytime we feel that we’re headed toward or in a peak state, we should probably kind of like lean back off that state just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit, especially if that peak state is coming by way of pharmacology, or some extreme circumstance. Just back off a little bit, maybe a lot. Okay? So, when we do that, we learn to master the transition states between these, what I’m referring to as forward center of mass, flat-footed, or back on my heels. It’s a term I learned from a former Navy SEAL operator. He said, “With anything in life, you can either be back on your heels, like really challenged, flat-footed, kind of like calm and and forward, or forward center of mass, like full tilt.” I think most people would do very well to learn to master the transition states between waking and going to sleep, right? Many people can’t fall asleep, many people just kind of can’t turn it off. You can learn how to do that by doing things like non-sleep deep rest, some long exhale breathing, simple self-directed, zero-cost tools that help adjust your autonomic nervous system to be more, what we call, parasympathetic, more rest and digest. Just long exhales, might not work the first time, but over time these become very effective tools to self-direct the shift from forward center of mass to flat footage. Just kind of laying back, back on your heels, and there you go, you’re off to sleep.

那么，这意味着什么呢？这意味着我们应该学会调节我们的状态。这就像开车一样，每当我们感觉自己过于兴奋时，我们应该稍微放松一下，尤其是在这种兴奋是由药物或某些极端情况造成的时候。我们需要适当地放松，也许需要大幅度地放松。所以，当我们这样做的时候，我们就学会了如何控制不同状态之间的转换，我称之为“重心前移”、“平足”以及“脚跟着地”。这是一个我从一名前海军海豹突击队员那里学到的术语，他说：“在生活中，你可以选择‘脚跟着地’，也就是迎接挑战；可以选择‘平足’，也就是保持平静，稳步前进；也可以选择‘重心前移’，也就是全力以赴。”我认为，对于大多数人来说，学会如何控制清醒和入睡之间的转换状态非常重要。许多人无法入睡，他们无法让自己安静下来。你可以通过练习非睡眠深度休息、长时间呼气等简单易行、零成本的方法来学习如何入睡。这些方法可以帮助你调整自主神经系统，使其更加倾向于副交感神经，也就是休息和消化状态。长时间呼气，这种方法一开始可能不会奏效，但随着时间的推移，它会成为一种非常有效的自我调节工具，可以帮助你从“重心前移”状态转换到“平足”状态。你只需要躺下来，放松你的身体，然后你就可以入睡了。

When you wake up in the morning, some people are just depleted. Maybe you didn’t sleep enough. But, learning to get forward center of mass, shouldn’t require, you know, excess caffeine and stimulants, and super loud music and, uh, you know, a shocking text or email. Ideally, you can transition pretty quickly into being forward center of mass, but not full tilt forward center of mass. And why do I say this? I think for anyone who seeks to be successful in any domain, academics, business, creative endeavors, whatever, if you want to have a long arc life and a long arc career, you really strive to control these transition states. And when I say control, all it really takes, is paying attention to them. And paying attention to the fact that yes, some people just have inherently more energy. They can do every single workout at max output, then shower, they’re talking in the gym, then they’re off to the, some people are like that. Some people, like myself, if I give a 100% to something in the morning, by the afternoon I’m a little bit depleted. So, I require a 10 or 20 minute non-sleep deep rest, or a nap, or just some quiet long exhale breathing, maybe a little bit of caffeine, which I’m drinking now. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with healthy stimulants, provided they’re consumed moderation. Maybe an energy drink, those can be great too, for some people. And then, you know, really going like full tilt, focusing one’s attention. And then, afterwards, taking a few moments, just moments to downshift. I think we hear so much about the power of meditation, or non-sleep deep bre, or ice baths. What do, what do cold plunges and cold showers do? They stimulate the release of, what, the catacol amines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, long duration release. That’s why it’s useful, in my opinion, for all the debate about delate cold exposure. “Does it increase metabolism? Does it not?” The answer seems to be, probably not much. But, it’s absolutely clear that it causes a huge increase in adrenaline, dopamine, and norepinephrine, that are very long-lasting, and that makes you feel great, especially when you get out of the cold. And I think that’s the value of it. It also saves you on your heating bill, like you don’t have to have a cold plunge, you take a cold shower. Nobody likes it, but the point is, you get out and you feel different. It’s a state shift. So, that’s great. But, you don’t want to do it to excess. Because, then you know, for instance, people always say, “How long should I go in the cold plunge or cold shower?” And I say, “Do it the minimum amount, so that you get the effect that you’re seeking, which is to be more alert and motivated.” I have a friend, he did 30 minutes, for some reason naked. He said, “I did 30 minutes, naked, in the coal plunge, and then I got sick, and I’m feeling really low.” And I’m like, “Because you did 30 minutes.” I mean, I don’t know about the naked part, what that had to do with it. You had to throw that in there. He’s kind of an extreme guy. And I said, “How about 1 minute? How about 30 seconds? How about don’t even pay attention to the time? Just get in, and stay in as long as, until you want to get out, and then push through that barrier, and then get out.” That might be a minute, might be three minutes. You know, protect yourself, be safe. But, just learn to overcome some challenge, and then get out. You know, we have this fixation that, “More is better.” And more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose, maybe a little bit more. Because, we don’t know where minimal is.

有些人早上醒来时会感到疲惫不堪，这可能是因为他们没有睡够。但学习如何让自己进入积极的状态，并不需要过量地摄入咖啡因和兴奋剂，也不需要听震耳欲聋的音乐，或者查看那些令人震惊的短信或邮件。理想情况下，你应该能够很快地进入积极的状态，但不要过度兴奋。我为什么要这么说呢？因为我认为，对于那些想要在任何领域取得成功的人来说，无论是学术界、商界还是创意领域，如果你想要拥有一个成功的人生和事业，你就需要学会如何控制这些状态之间的转换。我所说的控制，是指关注它们，关注有些人天生就比其他人精力充沛的事实。他们可以全力以赴地完成每一次训练，然后去淋浴，他们在健身房里谈笑风生，然后去处理其他的事情。有些人就是这样的。而有些人，比如我，如果我在早上把全部精力都投入到某件事情上，那么到了下午我就会感到有些疲惫。所以我需要进行 10 到 20 分钟的非睡眠深度休息，或者小睡一会儿，或者只是安静地做一些长时间的呼气练习，也许还会喝一点咖啡。健康的兴奋剂并没有错，只要适量摄入即可。能量饮料对某些人来说也可能很有帮助。然后，你可以全力以赴地投入到工作中，集中你的注意力。之后，花一些时间放松一下。我们经常听到人们谈论冥想、非睡眠深度休息以及冰浴的好处。冷水浴和冷水澡的作用是什么？它们会刺激儿茶酚胺的释放，包括多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素，并且持续时间很长。我认为，这就是为什么冷水浴对人们有益的原因。它是否能够提高新陈代谢？答案似乎是，作用不大。但它确实能够显著提高肾上腺素、多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素的水平，而且持续时间很长，这会让你感觉很棒，尤其是在你从冷水中出来的时候。我认为这就是它的价值所在。它还能帮你节省暖气费，你不需要专门进行冷水浴，洗个冷水澡就可以了。虽然没有人喜欢洗冷水澡，但你会发现，洗完冷水澡后，你的感觉会完全不同，你的状态会发生改变。这很好，但不要过度。例如，人们总是会问：“我应该在冷水浴或冷水澡中待多久？”我的建议是，以最短的时间达到你想要的效果，也就是让你更加警觉和有动力。我有一个朋友，他会在冷水浴中待 30 分钟，而且不知什么原因，他会赤身裸体地进行冷水浴。他说：“我赤身裸体地在冷水浴中待了 30 分钟，然后我生病了，感觉很糟糕。”我说：“那是因为你待了 30 分钟。”我不知道为什么他一定要赤身裸体地进行冷水浴，他就是一个喜欢走极端的人。我说：“1 分钟怎么样？30 秒怎么样？或者你甚至可以不用在意时间，只要进去，想出来的时候就出来，然后再坚持一会儿，然后再出来。”这可能是一分钟，也可能是三分钟。要注意安全，保护好自己。你只需要学会克服挑战，然后从冷水中出来。我们总是认为“越多越好”，但事实并非如此。你只需要找到最小的有效剂量，或者稍微多一点，因为我们并不知道最小剂量是多少。

People say, “How many sets in the gym?” Is it, you know, now it’s like all about the volume, hypertrophy, or like, I’ve always, fairly low recovery quotient. So, for me, I like to do a couple warm-ups, a few hard sets, two or three hard sets, another exercise, two or three hard sets, that’s it, for that muscle group, move on. People always say, “Well volume is where”, okay, great, but when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per muscle group, I’ll tell you, I, I’m depleted. It doesn’t work for me. And even though I’m a scientist, and I trust data, I also trust my own experience. And no one’s going to tell me that it’s placebo, because it’s what’s worked for me. So, I think that you have to find what your capabilities are.

人们会问：“在健身房应该做几组训练？”现在，人们都在谈论训练容量和肌肉肥大，但我一直以来的恢复商都比较低。所以，我喜欢做几组热身，然后做两三组高强度的训练，换一个动作，再做两三组高强度的训练，针对同一个肌肉群，然后就结束了。人们总是说：“训练容量是……”好吧，这很好，但当我每周每个肌肉群做 16 到 20 组训练时，我感觉精疲力尽，这对我来说并不适用。虽然我是一名科学家，我信任数据，但我也相信我自己的经验。没有人可以说这是安慰剂效应，因为它对我来说确实有效。所以，我认为你必须找到适合自己的训练方法。

And I do think if you look at dog breeds, of which I’m obsessed by, if you go to a dog show, which everyone should go to a dog show once, but don’t watch the show, go behind the show, where you see all the different dog breeds, what you’ll see is what I saw the first time I did that. You have dogs where, wagging their tail all the time, they’re super excited, they’re alert, you can see their eyes, right? They’re just brighteyed. You can see the Great Danes, they’re super still. And then, my favorite breed, and the reason I own them, is the bulldog, the essence of economy of effort. They don’t even lift their head off the ground. You walk over, you pet them, they’ll like look up at you, they might wink. Very still animals. Very powerful, but very still animals. Now, I’m not wired like that, as you’re probably getting the impression. I have a little bit more spontaneous movement, etc. So, I need a lot of mental and physical stimulation in order to be happy, in order to feel fulfilled.

我确实认为，如果你观察狗的品种——我对狗特别痴迷——你会发现去一次狗展是非常值得的，每个人都应该去看一次。但重点不在于看表演，而是去表演的幕后，在那里你能看到各种各样的狗品种。当我第一次这样做时，我看到的是这样的一幕：有些狗总是摇着尾巴，它们非常兴奋，警觉，你可以看到它们眼睛里闪烁着光芒。你还可以看到非常安静的大丹犬。而我最喜欢的品种，也是我选择养它们的原因，就是斗牛犬。斗牛犬简直是“节能”精神的化身。它们连抬头都懒得抬。你走过去摸它们，它们可能会抬眼看你，甚至可能眨眨眼。非常安静但强壮的动物。现在，我的个性和斗牛犬有很大不同，你可能已经察觉到。我更倾向于自发的行动等等。因此，我需要大量的精神和身体刺激才能感到快乐和满足。

So, for me, there was a lot of work, and I still do a lot of work, in order to learn how to downshift, take it down, become a good sleeper, become a good resetter, reset myself during the middle of the day with things like non-sleep deep rest, which, for me, has been one of the most powerful tools, or long exhale breathing, to just bring myself down. Other people, they tend to have a little bit less energy than life demands of them, so they need to do a bit more cold shower, a little bit more caffeine, but then those people probably need a little bit more rest. They’re like the bulldogs of life.

所以，对我来说，我需要付出很多努力，并且一直在努力学习如何让自己放松下来，如何改善睡眠质量，如何让自己在一天中重新充满活力。非睡眠深度休息对我来说是一种非常有效的工具，或者进行长时间的呼气练习，这些都可以让我平静下来。而有些人，他们的精力可能没有那么充沛，所以他们需要洗更多的冷水澡，喝更多的咖啡，但他们也需要更多的休息。他们就像生活中的斗牛犬。

Steven: I think even though we’re all the same species, just like dogs, there’s a lot of variation there. So, you have to “Know thyself”, as the Oracle said. Understanding a little bit about the catacol amines, understanding that certain things, like exercise, deliberate cold exposure, stimulants like caffeine, and prescription drugs like Adderall, etc., powerfully cause the release of these catacol amines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, leading to big increases in energy and focus. But then, always, always, always, there’s a cost, a trough that follows. Accept that, relax through it, then return to baseline, and then go forward. Or, avoid those things altogether. I’m not telling people what to do, obviously. The prescription drug thing, in particular, can be, you know, problematic for some people, even addictive, and certainly I’m not a fan of drugs of abuse, like cocaine, amphetamine, absolutely categorically never done them, never will. And then, other people who tend to veer toward, you know, being hyperactivated, a lot of spontaneous movement, these people tend to be a little bit thinner, a little bit leaner, or just have a ton of natural energy. Um, these people should really learn to incorporate more, kind of, what I would call calming and relaxing practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than C plunge. Maybe don’t crank the sauna to 220, you know? I find myself doing that. I’m like, “Just relax, like enjoy the sauna.” And so, I think the key to a good life, and a productive life, is again, to learn to master the tr transition states, understand some of the biology, and to really know yourself. Not just your natural tendency, more bulldog-like, versus you know, uh, I don’t know. Pit bulls always have their tail going, a lot of spontaneous movement. Uh, there other breeds as well, but also know that on any given day you may be more or less rested, you might be more or less depleted from life experience, and kind of recognize where you’re at, and figure out what’s optimal for that day. In fact, I forget who the guy is, he’s on Instagram, and there are a lot of self-help account, then there are a lot of self-help accounts out there. But, one of the best things that, um, I’ve heard recently, and I try and incorporate in, uh, into my life. In fact, it’s in my notebook. Is, when I wake up in the morning, I sort of take stock of where I am in terms of how rested I am. I certainly take stock of what I need to do that day. And then, I ask, “What’s something that I can do to make my life that day, and the life of others, better?” Sometimes that means rest a little bit more, sometimes that means push a little bit more, sometimes that means call a relative that you haven’t spoken to. But, thinking about how to make things better, on the time scale of a day, for oneself and for others, I think, is what’s manageable and it’s what’s realistic. And it takes this whole concept of protocols, and biohacking, and prescription drugs, and supplements, and workouts, and it, and it brings a real world perspective to it.

史蒂文: 我认为，即使我们都属于同一个物种，就像狗一样，我们也存在很大的个体差异。所以，你必须“认识你自己”，正如神谕所说。了解一些关于儿茶酚胺的知识，了解某些事物，例如运动、冷水浴、咖啡因等兴奋剂，以及 Adderall 等处方药，都会导致儿茶酚胺的释放，包括多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素，这会让你更加精力充沛，更加专注。但随之而来的，总是会有一个低谷，你需要接受它，放松地度过它，然后你的多巴胺水平会恢复到正常水平，然后你就可以继续前进。或者，你也可以完全避免这些事物。我并不是在告诉人们应该做什么，我只是想说，处方药，特别是对某些人来说，可能会带来问题，甚至会导致上瘾。我从来不服用例如可卡因和安非他命这样的药物，我绝对不会碰它们。有些人天生就精力充沛，喜欢运动，他们往往体型比较瘦，或者天生就拥有很高的能量水平。这些人应该学习一些让自己平静下来的方法，例如多进行桑拿，少进行冷水浴。不要把桑拿的温度调得太高，我发现我自己经常会这样做，我会提醒自己：“放松，享受桑拿。”所以，我认为，想要拥有一个美好而高效的人生，关键在于学会控制不同状态之间的转换，了解一些生物学知识，以及真正地了解自己。你需要了解你的自然倾向，你更像斗牛犬，还是更像比特犬？比特犬总是摇着尾巴，充满了活力。当然，还有其他的犬种，但你需要知道，你每天的状态都可能不同，你可能会因为生活经历而感到疲惫不堪，或者精力充沛。你需要了解你目前的状态，并找到最适合你的方法。我忘记是谁说过这样一句话，他在 Instagram 上分享了许多关于自助的内容。他说，每天早上醒来后，他会先评估一下自己的状态，看看自己休息得如何，然后他会列出当天需要做的事情，最后他会问自己：“我能做些什么来让今天的生活，以及其他人的生活，变得更好？”有时这意味着你需要多休息一会儿，有时这意味着你需要更加努力，有时这意味着你需要给一位你很久没有联系的亲戚打电话。我认为，思考如何让事情变得更好，无论是为我们自己，还是为他人，这才是最实际的，也是最容易做到的。它将方案、生物黑客、处方药、补充剂和锻炼等概念融入到我们的日常生活中，为我们提供了一种全新的视角。

So, I think we’re living in the, um, in the time of kind of, um, almost avatars of these different things. Like, I think about David Goggins, who I know well, well, at, from the perspective of coworker, right? Where I consider him a friend, but we’ve never hung out outside of the work context. But, I first met David back in 2016, and I’ll tell you, he’s always that way, at least when I’ve interacted with him, he’s always been, you know, forward center of mass. It was late in the day on a work, this was a thing in Silicon Valley, was down in San Jose, um, Santa Clara, San Jose area, in, I believe, it was 2016. And we had been working all day, in this part of this consult for this company. And in the afternoon, you know, there was like, “Do we take a break or do we push?” He’s like, “No, we push, we’re going to do this.” And I thought, “Whoa, like, this guy’s intense.” And he was changing, because he was going to run to the airport. But, not run to the airport in an Uber, or drive to the airport, he meant run to the airport. And he did. So, you know, he’s forward center mass. He clearly has the energy, or he’s found the energy.

所以，我觉得我们现在生活在一个几乎每种事物都有其化身的时代。比如说，我想到大卫·戈金斯，我和他很熟悉，从同事的角度来看，他是我的朋友，虽然我们从未在工作之外有过私人接触。我是在2016年第一次见到大卫的，我可以告诉你，自那时起他一直都是那样，至少在我们互动的过程中，他总是充满了能量。那是工作日的晚些时候，发生在硅谷的圣何塞地区，我们整天都在为一家企业进行咨询。到了下午，有人建议“我们休息一下还是继续？”他毫不犹豫地说，“我们继续，一定要完成。”我当时心想，“哇，这个人真是精力充沛。”他当时在换衣服，因为他打算跑去机场，而不是打Uber或开车去，他真的跑去了机场。所以你可以看出，他总是充满能量，不断向前推进。

Steven: Can you train that? Can you raise your sort of baseline dopamine level? Um, or are they two separate questions?

史蒂文: 这是可以通过训练获得的吗？我们能够提高我们的多巴胺基线水平吗？或者说，这是两个不同的问题？

Andrew: It’s a great question. I don’t know that we have the answer. I think you can, if you become more economical about whatever dopamine or other neurochemicals you happen to harbor inside. We know there’s a lot of genetic and individual variation to these things. You know, there’s a joke among parents, right? Like, “How they come out is how they stay.” Like, the the mellow kid, the mellow baby that didn’t cry much, the happy baby, remains the happy person. You know, there are circumstances that can alter that, versus the fussy baby that’s always fussy, as even as an adult. You know, parents talk this way. But, parents say all sorts of things. Um, but, you know, I know people for instance, like Rick Rubin for for instance, who is very high energy, but very calm. It’s part of Rick’s magic. He knows how to regulate and control his energy. He has this uncanny capacity to get near things, in particular, um, art, music, and to experience them, really feel them, but not get absorbed by it, not feel, at least to my my knowledge, depleted by it. Some people get kind of absorbed by things, and then depleted.

安德鲁: 这是一个很好的问题，我不知道我们是否已经找到了答案。我认为，如果你能够更加有效地利用你体内的多巴胺和其他神经递质，你就可以提高你的多巴胺基线水平。我们知道，这其中存在许多基因和个体差异。父母之间有一个笑话，他们说：“孩子出生时的样子就是他们将来的样子。”例如，一个温顺的孩子，一个不怎么哭闹的婴儿，一个快乐的婴儿，长大后仍然会是一个快乐的人。当然，也有一些情况会改变一个人的性格，例如一个总是很挑剔的婴儿，即使长大成人后，他可能仍然会很挑剔。这只是父母的说法，但父母们什么都会说。但我认识一些人，例如里克·鲁宾，他精力非常充沛，但却非常平静。这是里克的魔力所在，他知道如何调节和控制他的能量。他拥有一种不可思议的能力，能够接近事物，尤其是艺术和音乐，他能够真正地体验和感受它们，但不会被它们所吞噬，也不会感到精疲力尽。而有些人则很容易被事物所吸引，并因此而感到精疲力尽。

Steven: Is this like the introvert, extrovert conversation as well? Because, two people can be in the same room, and I, I mean, I’m I consider myself to be a bit of an extrovert, sorry, introvert. Where, if I stand in a room for two to three hours doing small talk, I, I, the way I describe it, it’s like my brain feels fried.

史蒂文: 这是否也与内向者和外向者有关？因为，两个人可以在同一个房间里，我，我更倾向于认为自己是一个内向的人。如果我在一个房间里站两三个小时，进行一些闲聊，我会感觉我的大脑像是被炸了一样。

Andrew: Mhm.

安德鲁: 嗯哼。

Steven: Whereas, my assistant, Sophie, it’s like you’ve poured fuel into her.

史蒂文: 而我的助理索菲，她则像被注入了能量一样。

Andrew: Yeah, I, similar to you. And, um, I have an ex-girlfriend who loved parties. She would just get so much energy from parties. And I like certain parties, but I like the, the small conversation I might have at a party, is, um, so that resonates with me. I think we can shift, well, to answer the introvert, extrovert question, I do think that some people get energy from social interactions, other people less so. But, I know people who are quite quiet who like social interactions. They’re just more an observer in those interactions, as opposed to a participant. The introvert, extrovert thing also, at least my understanding of the science is, that it depends a bit on how quickly you fill up with social engagement. Like I, I like a good party, but after a couple hours, I’m like done, you know? And other people, they can just go, go, go, go, go, go, go. They get more energy from it. I think, you know, we think of Goggins as kind of an iconic example, because he is, of somebody who is capable of pushing himself, regardless of what the internal narratives might might be. That’s my sense, having spoken to him about it on my podcast, and observed him on social media and other podcasts.

安德鲁: 是的，我和你一样。我有一个前女友，她非常喜欢参加派对，她总是能从派对中获得很多能量。我也喜欢参加一些派对，但我更喜欢在派对上进行一些简单的交流，这更让我感到舒服。我认为，关于内向者和外向者的问题，有些人确实可以从社交互动中获得能量，而有些人则不能。但我认识一些非常安静的人，他们也喜欢社交互动，他们只是更喜欢观察，而不是参与其中。内向者和外向者的区别，至少根据我对这方面科学研究的理解，在于他们对社交活动的耐受程度。我喜欢参加派对，但几个小时后，我就会想要离开了。而有些人则可以一直玩下去，他们能够从社交互动中获得更多的能量。我认为，大卫·戈金斯就是一个典型的例子，他是一个能够不断挑战自我的人，无论他的内心想法是什么。这是我在我的播客节目中与他交谈，以及在社交媒体和其他播客节目中观察他得出的结论。

Some people, like Jocko Willink, embody the, “Don’t even think about it, you do it, because it’s 4:30 in the morning, and at 4:30 in the morning, you work out. Like, don’t think, do.

有些人，例如乔科·威林克，他的座右铭是：“不要思考，去做就对了，因为现在是凌晨 4 点 30 分，你应该去锻炼。不要思考，行动起来。

Um, whereas, when I think about David, I think of many things, but in particular about overcoming the voice in the mind that’s trying to pull you down, and defeating that. In fact, having multiple representations of self in the brain, which is a fascinating thing unto itself. And then, when I think about Rick, I think, you know, Rick is I, iconic in my mind, for his sense of creativity, his ability to sense what is truly new and unique. He has incredible taste, right? To really be able to sense, like, “This is new and different and exciting.” And he seems to understand, without trying to seek what people are going to like, what people inevitably love. So, that’s his, one of his many superpowers. And everyone has their superpower. Those are just so extremes. I think of Lex Fridman as somebody who is so thoughtful. And I mean, I don’t think people really understand just how hard Lex thinks about the tragedies of the world, the darkness in the world, but also the love that’s in the world. I mean, he really like, hyper affiliates with what’s happening in his mind, and he’s able to really like absorb himself in that. And you can feel, like his his, like, he gets right up next to the fire, like right up next to these things. And I think he represents the kind of iconic example of an explorer, who will look anywhere, even if people are going to give him a hard time for it. But, I think mostly people celebrate him for it, you know? So, I think, you know, different people have different lens lenses on life, and different capacities. I think if one wants to increase their baseline level of dopamine, I think it’s important to regulate those peaks and troughs. I’m not a believer in like never having peaks and dopamine. A great wedding party, like I’ve been to some weddings where we just like partied all night, or great concerts. I’m actually a huge fan, it’s kind of a a genre of music I don’t know much about, but I’ve always loved that band, James. Do you know the band, “We Are James”?

嗯，当我想到大卫时，脑海里浮现出许多事物，但最突出的是他如何战胜内心那种试图拉低自己的声音，并最终取得胜利。实际上，我们的大脑中存在着多重自我，这本身就是一件非常有趣的事。而提到瑞克，他在我心中象征着一种独特的创造力，他有着极强的直觉，能够识别出真正新颖独特的东西。他有着惊人的品味，能辨识出“这是新鲜的、与众不同的、令人激动的”。他似乎不需要去刻意迎合什么，却能准确预见到人们最终会热爱的事物。这是他的超能力之一。当然，每个人都有他们独特的超能力。举个极端的例子，我认为莱克斯·弗里德曼是一个极富思考力的人。我觉得外界可能没有完全意识到他对世界的悲剧、黑暗面以及其中的爱有多么深刻的思考。他真的会全身心地投入到这些思考中，近乎于与这些情感和问题融为一体。你能感受到他几乎是紧贴着那些“火焰”在思考，我认为他是那种无所畏惧的探索者，即便会遭遇非议，也愿意探寻真理。但大多数人其实都为他的勇气和坚持而喝彩。我觉得，每个人对生活都有不同的视角和能力。如果一个人想提升自己多巴胺的基线水平，我认为调节这些情绪的高峰和低谷是很重要的。我并不支持完全杜绝多巴胺的高峰时刻。比如说一场盛大的婚礼派对，或者一场精彩的音乐会——这些都会带来巨大的愉悦。我其实是个大粉丝，虽然不太熟悉某些音乐流派，但我一直很喜欢那个乐队James。你听说过他们吗，“We Are James”？

Steven: Oh, it’s so good.

史蒂文: 哦，他们太棒了。

Andrew: Okay, I’m gonna lose punk points for saying this, but best live shows ever. Just the best live shows I’ve ever seen. And I know there are, and I, and I know there are a lot of different ideas about best live shows, based on genres of music, I just, it’s like the best party you’ve ever been to. And I get a lift in energy that lasts two, three days from that. I don’t consume any substances at those shows. They happen very seldom, but when I’ve gone, for two or three days, I feel like a changed person. It’s a marked shift in neurochemical state, and I don’t feel a trough afterwards. So, I want to be very clear. There’s certain things like celebrations, con, they seem to give us these big surges in neurochemicals, but they don’t leave us depleted. And I’m very intrigued by these experiences. Because, when I look to some examples, I have some friends who’ve been very successful in the tech sector and finance sector. They make a lot of money, and I always worry about them afterwards. Inevitably, they end up depressed, not knowing what they want to do. So, I always encourage them to keep working. In fact, the happiest people in tech and finance are the ones that keep working, even after they get rich.

安德鲁: 好吧，我这样说可能会失去一些朋克积分，但他们的现场演出是我看过的最好的现场演出。我知道关于最佳现场演出的评判标准有很多，而且会因为音乐类型而异，但他们的演出就像是你参加过的最好的派对。我的能量水平会因此而提升，并且持续两三天。我在看他们的演出时不会服用任何药物。他们的演出很少举行，但每次看完他们的演出，我都会感觉像是变了一个人，这种感觉会持续两三天。我的神经化学状态发生了显著的改变，而且之后我不会感到任何的低谷。所以，我想说清楚一点，有些事情，例如庆祝活动，它们会让我们体内的神经化学物质大量 surge，但它们不会让我们感到精疲力尽，我对此非常感兴趣。我有一些朋友在科技和金融领域取得了巨大的成功，他们赚了很多钱，但我总是担心他们之后的状态。他们最终不可避免地会感到沮丧，迷失了人生的方向。所以我总是鼓励他们继续工作。事实上，在科技和金融领域，最快乐的人是那些即使在获得财富之后仍然继续工作的人。

So, the people I see who are very happy, are the people who take stock of their natural levels of energy, curiosity, motivation. You know, we could say dopamine, but that’s kind of a surrogate for a bunch of other things, and it’s incomplete, right? There are other chemicals involved. But, for sake of conversation, we could say dopamine, catamin, epinephrine, and they sort of know what they’re capable of on a consistent basis. I think one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got, was from a neurologist by the name of Bob Knight. When I was a graduate student, he said, “Figure out how much work you can do, over the course of the next four to five years, on a consistent basis, because it’s going to change as you get older. Might not even go down.” So, for instance, I know that I can work a good solid 12 hours a day. That’s me, 12 hours a day, five maybe six days a week. But, I like one full day off per week. I, I just like that. Typically, it’s Sunday for me. I’ll do some exercise, and some other things, but if I try and go 15 hours a day, or 12 hours a day, seven days a week, I’m going to run aground. For other people, they need to work less. And now, some people will say, “Okay, but do you have kids, and this, and that?” I’m not saying what work means. It could be career, it could be family, or both. But, I’m not somebody who has an infinite amount of energy. But, I have a lot of energy. If you have less energy, you can do things like, try and get great sleep, try and eat as well as you possibly can, you may have to do more to get more energy. But, sort of have to accept your own, um, kind of basic line state. And I think I certainly know many people who are like mellower, calmer, have, quote unquote, “less energy”. They’re just more efficient with that energy. They place it correctly. They’re not wasting their energy. I know people that can scroll Instagram all the time, talk about what’s going on on Twitter, watch three podcasts, program, and do a million things, and like they’re fine. So, I think we have to know where our groove is. And that, we can deviate from that about 15 to 20%, but anything more stream than that, we’re going to end up in trouble.

我发现，那些真正快乐的人，是那些了解自己能量水平、好奇心和动力的人。我们可以用多巴胺来概括这些特质，但这只是一个笼统的说法，并不完全准确，因为还有其他的化学物质参与其中。但为了方便讨论，我们可以用多巴胺、儿茶酚胺以及肾上腺素来指代这些特质，这些人了解自己能够持续地做多少工作。我得到过最好的建议之一，来自一位名叫鲍勃·奈特的神经学家。当我还是一名研究生的时候，他对我说：“你要弄清楚你在未来四五年内能够持续地做多少工作，因为随着年龄的增长，你的精力可能会发生变化，但也不一定会减少。”例如，我知道我每天可以工作 12 个小时，每周工作五天，或者六天。但我喜欢每周休息一整天，通常是在星期天，我会做一些运动，以及其他一些事情。但如果我试图每天工作 15 个小时，或者每天工作 12 个小时，每周工作七天，我就会崩溃。有些人需要更少的休息时间，有些人会问：“你有孩子吗？你有其他的事情要做吗？”我并不是在定义“工作”的含义，它可以指事业、家庭，或者两者兼而有之。我并不是一个拥有无限能量的人，但我确实精力充沛。如果你精力不足，你可以尝试改善你的睡眠质量，尽可能地健康饮食，你可能需要付出更多的努力才能获得更多的能量。但你必须接受你自身的能量水平，我认识许多性格温和、沉静的人，他们拥有的能量可能比我少，但他们能够更有效地利用这些能量，他们会把能量用在正确的地方，不会浪费任何精力。我认识一些人，他们可以花很多时间浏览 Instagram，谈论 Twitter 上的热门话题，观看三个播客节目，编写程序，做很多事情，而且他们仍然感觉良好。所以，我认为，我们必须了解自己的“最佳状态”，我们可以偏离它 15% 到 20%，但如果超过这个范围，我们就会遇到麻烦。

Steven: I think a lot of the reason why people are curious about dopamine, is because ultimately they want to be more productive or effective at some goal they have in their life. So, it might be building a business, it could be some, it could be a podcast, whatever. So, taking everything you know about dopamine and how it works, if you were giving me advice on how I could be a better entrepreneur, podcaster, whatever, um, the first thing I got from you was really about this idea of transitioning between states, and also allowing time for my reserves to replenish after a high-dopamine activity.

史蒂文: 我觉得人们之所以对多巴胺如此感兴趣，主要是因为他们希望自己能够在生活中的某个目标上变得更加高效或更有成效。无论是创建一个企业，做一些事情，还是制作一个播客，都在此列。所以，基于你对多巴胺及其运作方式的了解，如果你要给我一些关于如何成为更好的企业家或播客主的建议，嗯，我从你那里学到的第一件事就是关于在不同状态之间的转换，以及在进行高多巴胺活动后，留出时间让我的能量储备恢复的这个理念。

Andrew: Mh.

安德鲁: 嗯。

Steven: Um, is there anything else that I should be thinking about?

史蒂文: 嗯，还有什么其他的建议吗？

Andrew: Yeah. So, we could, um, operationalize this in a very clear way. Get enough sleep for you. For some people it’s six hours, for some people it’s eight hours. I’d like to dispel the myth, even though my friend Matt Walker will probably get upset at me for saying this, “Not everyone needs eight or nine hours of sleep.” Okay? I got six last night. Okay? I actually went to bed at midnight last night. Oh, excuse me, I got six hours and 45 minutes last night. I went to bed at midnight, which is kind of late for me, woke up at 6:45. But, get enough sleep. If you wake up in the morning, and you can’t get more sleep for whatever reason, can’t fall back asleep, or you have to get out of bed, if you do not feel rested, I recommend doing a 10 or 20 minute non-sleep deep rest, or yoga nidra protocol. They are available, zero cost, on YouTube. You could put “NSDR” my name if you want to listen to me do one. You could put “NSDR” Kelly Starrett boy does wonderful yoga nidras. He has a very pleasant voice. If you prefer a female voice, there’s some wonderful yoga nidras by a woman named Kamini Desai. Anyway, these are all zero-cost scripts that are available on YouTube.

安德鲁: 是的，我们可以用一种非常清晰的方式来解释这一点。首先，你要获得充足的睡眠，对有些人来说是 6 个小时，对有些人来说是 8 个小时。我想 dispel the myth，即使我的朋友马特·沃克可能会因为我这么说而生气，但并不是每个人都需要 8 到 9 个小时的睡眠。我昨晚只睡了 6 个小时，确切地说是 6 个小时 45 分钟，我午夜才睡觉，这对我来说有点晚了，我早上 6 点 45 分就起床了。但你要保证充足的睡眠。如果你早上醒来，无论出于什么原因，你无法继续睡觉，或者你必须起床，而你仍然感到疲倦，我建议你进行 10 到 20 分钟的非睡眠深度休息，或者瑜伽休息术。你可以在 YouTube 上免费找到这些练习的指导，你可以搜索“NSDR”和我的名字，就能找到我录制的练习指导。你也可以搜索“NSDR”和凯利·斯塔雷特，他录制了很棒的瑜伽休息术指导，他的声音非常悦耳。如果你更喜欢女性的声音，你也可以搜索卡米尼·德赛录制的瑜伽休息术指导。总之，你可以在 YouTube 上找到这些免费的练习脚本。

Steven: What is that?

史蒂文: 那是什么？

Andrew: So, um, so, non-sleep deep bre, simar you did one today.

安德鲁: 非睡眠深度休息，你今天做了一次。

Steven: I did one today on the way here.

史蒂文: 我今天来这里的路上做了一次。

Andrew: Okay, yeah. Here’s what we know it does. Replenishes baseline levels of dopamine in the basil ganglia, prepares you for action, both mental and physical action. Can indeed help offset some of the sleep that maybe you didn’t get, but you needed. We know that the brain goes into a kind of pseudo sleep in this state. And there’s also some evidence that yoga nidra, and similar practices, can improve rates of learning. Okay? So, that’s sort of the the benefits.

安德鲁: 好的。我们已经了解到，它可以补充基底神经节中的基线多巴胺水平，让你做好行动的准备，包括心理和身体行动。它确实可以帮助你弥补一些你没有获得的，但你需要的睡眠。我们知道，在这种状态下，大脑会进入一种 pseudo 睡眠状态。还有一些证据表明，瑜伽休息术和类似的练习可以提高学习效率。所以，这就是它的一些好处。

What is it? It involves what most people will call meditation, but it’s different than meditation. You lie down, you could do it se seated as well, but you lie down, eyes closed. And you do long exhale breathing. When we exhale, we actually slow our heart rate down. I could talk about how this is, this is through respiratory sinus arrhythmia. This is a relationship between the vagus nerve and the beating of the heart. But, in any case, when we inhale, our heart actually speeds up its beats slightly, and when we exhale, it slows down its beats slightly. So, it involves a lot of long exhale breathing. It involves a body scan, where you deliberately relax different aspects of your body. So, first your feet, then your legs, then your hands. It’s sort of a body scan of sorts, with long exhale breathing. And it takes you into a state that’s pseudo sleep. You’re somewhere between sleep and awake. Now, the beauty of NSDR and yoga nidra, is that part of the instruction at the beginning is to stay awake. Now, if you fall asleep, it’s okay, just make sure you set an alarm if you have to go to work, or do something else. But, by staying awake while being very relaxed, it seems that the nervous system can continue to stay in a sleep-like state, enough that you replenish some of these neurochemicals that prepare you for cognitive and physical action. Now, there are 10-minute NSDRs, there are 20-minute NSDRs, there are even hour-long yoga nidras and things of that sort. So, it depends on how much time you have before you need to get up.

它是什么呢？它与大多数人所说的冥想类似，但又有所不同。你需要躺下来，你也可以坐着练习，但你需要躺下来，闭上眼睛。然后进行长时间的呼气。当我们呼气时，我们的心率会减慢。我可以解释一下其中的原理，这是通过呼吸性窦性心律失常来实现的，它与迷走神经和心跳之间的关系有关。无论如何，当我们吸气时，我们的心跳会稍微加快，当我们呼气时，我们的心跳会稍微减慢。所以，这个练习需要进行大量的长时间呼气，它还包括身体扫描，你需要有意识地放松身体的各个部位。首先是你的脚，然后是你的腿，然后是你的手。这是一种身体扫描，伴随着长时间的呼气。它会让你进入一种类似睡眠的状态，你介于睡眠和清醒之间。NSDR 和瑜伽休息术的精妙之处在于，练习的指导语会提醒你保持清醒。如果你睡着了也没关系，但如果你需要去上班，或者做其他事情，你需要设置一个闹钟。但通过在非常放松的状态下保持清醒，神经系统似乎可以继续保持类似睡眠的状态，这足以让你补充一些神经化学物质，让你为认知和身体活动做好准备。NSDR 有 10 分钟、20 分钟的版本，瑜伽休息术甚至有长达一个小时的版本，所以，你需要根据自己的时间安排来选择合适的版本。

So, if you sleep well the night before, you wake up after 6, 8 hours, and you’re ready to go, boom, go. But, if you’re not, I highly recommend doing a 10, 20 or 30 minute NSDR practice. You will find that you will be far more rested, you will feel far more mentally and physically vigorous when you emerge from that. It’s remarkable. And Matt Walker’s laboratory and I are gearing up to do some studies on this, to figure out exactly what’s happening. Is the brain really going into sleep? Or is it something, you know, entirely different? We don’t quite know yet. In any event, it most certainly works, and soon we’ll know the exact mechanism in the brain. But, this dopamine re, but this reupping of dopamine, is very, very clear from the existing studies. So, what are you doing there? You’re essentially filling the reservoir for the day of activities.

所以，如果你前一天晚上睡得很好，你睡了 6 到 8 个小时后醒来，你感觉精力充沛，那就去做你计划做的事情吧。但如果你没有休息好，我强烈建议你进行 10、20 或 30 分钟的 NSDR 练习。你会发现，你会得到更好的休息，你会感觉精神和身体都更加充满活力。这很 remarkable。马特·沃克的实验室和我正在准备做一些关于这方面的研究，以弄清楚它的具体机制。大脑是真的进入了睡眠状态吗？或者它是一种完全不同的状态？我们目前还不知道确切的答案。但无论如何，它的效果非常显著，我们很快就会知道它在大脑中的确切机制。但有一点是肯定的，它能够提升多巴胺水平，这从现有的研究中可以很清楚地看到。所以，你在练习 NSDR 的时候，实际上是在为一天的活动补充“能量储备”。

Okay? Then, I recommend hydration, which has a profound effect on energy levels. So, 16 to 32 ounces of water. People debate, “Drink out of plastic, or don’t drink out of plastic. Do you have to purify your water?” etc. You know, listen, it depends on budget and interest, and level of paranoia. I drink a filtered water. I tend to drink out of ceramic or glass. But, I am somebody who will occasionally drink out of a plastic water bottle. I’m I’m not neurotic about that sort of thing. But, look, if you are, fine. And we could all do well to limit the amount of plastic was in the oceans, so there you go. Hydrate. Then, some people, like myself, do very well to get some exercise and sunlight, ideally simultaneously. But, certainly, get some sunlight and exercise, prior to caffeine. Some people do, some people don’t. Okay? I also understand and totally support people who just want their coffee or tea first thing in the morning. There’s no rule that says that you can’t do that. But, for me, what I would do is I’d get up, use the restroom if you need to, hydrate, and then get some bright light in your eyes, ideally from sunlight, first thing in the morning. Why? Well, there’s a whole story about circadian biology here that I could tell you, but I’ve done that many times before. Suffice to say, that getting bright light, ideally from sunlight, in your eyes, even through cloud cover. So, if you’re in the UK, even through cloud cover, increases the amount of cortisol release in your brain and body markedly. That is a good, healthy increase in cortisol, that is associ iated with the transition to waking up. So, we know that bright light in the morning, especially from sunlight, increases daytime mood, focus, and alertness. And it will improve your sleep later that night.

明白了吗？所以我建议保持水分充足，这对提升能量有很大帮助。每天喝16到32盎司的水。有些人会争论是否应该喝塑料瓶装的水，或是否需要净化水等等。其实这取决于你的预算、兴趣和对潜在问题的担忧。我一般会喝过滤水，通常用陶瓷或玻璃杯，但有时也会喝塑料瓶装的水，我对此并不特别担心。不过，如果你很在意，也没有问题。而且，我们都应该尽量减少海洋中的塑料垃圾。所以，保持水分非常重要。然后，有些人像我一样，在锻炼和晒太阳中受益匪浅，最好两者同时进行。但肯定要在喝咖啡之前进行锻炼和晒太阳。有些人会这样做，有些人则不会。你明白了吗？我也理解并完全支持那些早上第一件事就是喝咖啡或茶的人。没有什么规则说不能这样做。但对我来说，起床后我会先去卫生间，然后补充水分，接着尽量在早晨第一时间让眼睛接触到阳光。为什么呢？这里涉及到一个关于昼夜节律的科学原理，我之前已经讲过很多次了。简单来说，早上尽量让眼睛接触到阳光，即使是阴天。即使你在英国，在多云天气下也要尽量接触阳光，这会显著增加大脑和身体中的皮质醇水平。这种健康的皮质醇增加有助于你清醒过来。我们知道，早晨的阳光特别有助于提升白天的情绪、专注力和警觉性，并且还会改善晚上的睡眠。

Steven: Can I ask then, because I woke up in a hotel this morning, and because of you, I now think about sunlight a lot. So, I woke up, and I have a balcony in the hotel, but I can’t see the sun because the sun is on the other side of the hotel, right? So, you’re west-facing in the morning, and it’s coming up in the east.

史蒂文: 那么我可以问一下吗？因为我今天早上在酒店醒来，受你的影响，我现在经常会想到阳光。我的酒店房间有一个阳台，但我看不到太阳，因为太阳在酒店的另一边，我的房间是朝西的，而太阳是从东方升起的。

Andrew: So, here’s the ideal circumstance. You go outside, you take your sunglasses off, eyeglasses and contact are fine, even if they have UV protection, you face east. It’s a clear morning, the sun is there, maybe it’s even rising across the horizon. And you watch it for 5, 10 minutes, and then you go back inside and carry about your day. Here’s the realistic situation. You wake up, you’re in a hotel or an apartment, you’ve got things to do, your phone is on, etc. What do you do? Get out onto the balcony, get some natural light. The ambient light, as we say, is still far brighter outside, even on an overcast day, than it would be indoors with the brightest possible overhead lights. Now, there are seasonal affective disorder lights, so-called SAD lights, that are designed to generate 10,000 lux or more and simulate sunlight. There is really no simulation for sunlight, but those special lights are a special circumstance.

安德鲁: 所以，理想情况下，你应该走到户外，摘下你的太阳镜，戴着眼镜或隐形眼镜也没关系，即使它们有紫外线防护功能。你面朝东方，在一个晴朗的早晨，看着太阳从地平线上升起，持续 5 到 10 分钟，然后你回到室内，开始你的一天。但在现实生活中，你醒来后，你可能在酒店或公寓里，你有很多事情要做，你的手机也开着，等等。你应该怎么做呢？走到阳台上，接受一些自然光线的照射。即使是在阴天，户外的环境光线也要比室内最亮的灯光亮得多。当然，现在市面上有一些季节性情感障碍灯，也就是 SAD 灯，它们可以产生 10,000 勒克斯或更强的光线，并模拟阳光。但它们并不能真正地模拟阳光，那些特殊的灯只适用于特殊情况。

Here’s what I know for sure, and everyone will agree, that it’s much brighter outside, even on an overcast day, than it is at night. Okay? You can see, even on an overcast day, typically without a flashlight. That tells you there’s a lot of photons, a lot of light energy outside. So, the best thing to do, is just get outside, especially on overcast days, and get some ambient light in your eyes. When I say, “View morning sunlight as soon as possible after waking up”, two questions always emerge. First is, “What happens if I wake up before the sun comes out?” Well, listen, unless you have powers that I’m not aware of, you’re going to have to wait for the sun to come out. Okay? I just don’t have any way to make it rise any faster for you. So, and if you do, please like, email me and let me know how that’s done. But, the point here is that, on an overcast day, or even if you’re not looking in the direction that the sun happens to be rising, you’re still getting sunlight. The photon energy is what arrives at your eyes, eventually triggers activation of cells in the neural retina, this pie crust-like tissue that lines the back of your eyes, and signals to your brain, “It’s time to wake up.” So, when I say, “View morning sunlight”, a lot of people think they need to see the sunrise across the sunset. I don’t mean you need to see the sun as an object, you need to see the light emitting from the sun, and even on overcast days, that, there.

有一件事我可以肯定，大家也都会同意，那就是即使在阴天，外面的光亮程度也远胜于夜晚。即便在阴天，你通常无需手电筒也能看清东西。这说明外面有大量光子和光能。因此，最好的方法就是走到户外，尤其是在阴天的时候，让你的眼睛接触到一些自然光。当我说“醒来后尽快看早晨的阳光”时，人们通常会有两个问题。第一个是，“如果我在太阳出来前醒了怎么办？”听着，除非你有我不知道的超能力，否则你只能等太阳出来了。好吗？我也没有办法让太阳升得更快。所以，如果你真的知道办法，请发邮件告诉我。但重点是，即使在阴天，或者即使你没朝着太阳升起的方向看，你还是能接收到阳光。光子能量进入你的眼睛，激活视网膜的神经细胞，这层像馅饼皮一样的组织覆盖在你眼球的后部，并向大脑发出信号：“该醒了。”所以，当我说“看早晨的阳光”时，很多人误以为要看到太阳升起的景象。我指的不是这个，而是你需要看到来自太阳的光，即使在阴天也是如此。

Now, on a densely overcast day, in the thick of winter, in the UK or Scandinavia, it can be quite dark, even in the morning and throughout the day. In that case, you’ll really want to strive to get some bright artificial light exposure in the morning, and throughout the day as well. But, this business of getting sunlight, we can put light in capital letters, not necessarily seeing the sun as an object, but getting sunlight in your eyes early in the day, increases that cortisol peak and its duration. This is great for your immune system, it great for alertness. And when we hear cortisol normally, people think, “Bad. Oh, cortisol is bad.” No. Cortisol is terrific. You need cortisol. Trust me, people who have deficits in cortisol production or regulation, have all sorts of problems. We’re talking about getting a healthy, big increase in cortisol early in the day, that carries your energy until the evening, and then the cortisol drops off.

在英国或斯堪的纳维亚半岛，在冬季的阴天，即使是早上和白天，光线也可能非常昏暗。在这种情况下，你应该尽量在早上，以及白天，都接受一些明亮的人造光线的照射。但获得阳光，我这里指的是光线，并不一定是指看到太阳本身，而是指让你的眼睛在早上接触到阳光，这会增加皮质醇的峰值及其持续时间。这对你的免疫系统和警觉性都很有好处。当我们提到皮质醇的时候，人们通常会认为：“不好，皮质醇不好。”不，皮质醇很棒，你需要皮质醇。相信我，那些皮质醇分泌不足，或者皮质醇调节功能紊乱的人，会遇到各种各样的问题。我们所说的，是在早上获得健康、大量的皮质醇，它会让你精力充沛，直到晚上，然后皮质醇水平会下降。

Steven: What about shift workers?

史蒂文: 那轮班工作的人呢？

Andrew: Shift workers? God bless them. They’re essential for so much of what we do and consume and need. So, we have to be grateful to them. They, un fortunately, are in a very compromised health state, often. They have digestive issues, mood issues, it’s a real problem. And it’s very dependent on the particular shift. The worst case scenario for them, is the swing shift, where they’re working days, then they’re working nights, on the order of you know, three days on, three days off, etc. It’s terrible. We know that health outcomes for shift workers are so much worse. We know that a few things can help, for instance, regular meal and exercise times. Okay? We know that red light, and here I’m not talking about red light therapy, I’m talking about working under lights that are a bit more, um, red shifted, long wavelength shifted as we say, as opposed to bright fluorescent lights, can help reduce some of the cortisol release associated with shift work that occurs at the wrong times. This is a pretty nuanced topic, um, that, again, depends on the shift. Um, ideally, one doesn’t work shifts their entire life. If you absolutely have to do shift work, go to your boss, tell them I said this, “Try and stay on the same schedule, even if it’s a nocturnal schedule, which is the most unhealthy schedule, try and stay on the same schedule for at least two weeks before shifting back to another schedule.”

安德鲁: 轮班工作的人？上帝保佑他们。他们为我们做了很多必要的工作，我们应该感谢他们。不幸的是，轮班工作通常会对他们的健康造成很大的损害。他们经常有消化问题和情绪问题，这是一个很严重的问题，而且情况会因不同的轮班方式而异。对他们来说，最糟糕的情况是那种需要经常变换作息时间的轮班方式，他们可能需要白天工作，然后晚上工作，例如三天工作，三天休息，等等。这太糟糕了，我们知道，轮班工作的人的健康状况要比其他人差很多。我们也知道，一些方法可以帮助他们改善健康状况，例如，规律的饮食和锻炼时间。我们还知道，使用红光，我这里不是指红光疗法，而是指在偏红色的灯光下工作，而不是明亮的荧光灯，这有助于减少轮班工作带来的皮质醇分泌紊乱。这是一个非常复杂的问题，取决于具体的轮班方式。理想情况下，一个人不应该一辈子都从事轮班工作。如果你必须轮班工作，去找你的老板，告诉他我说的这句话：“尽量保持固定的作息时间，即使是夜间工作，这也是最不健康的作息时间，尽量坚持至少两周，然后再切换到另一个作息时间。

Steven: If you’re somebody who’s required to stay up until 3:00 in the morning, and then sleep until 11:00 a.m., does that mean that viewing morning sunlight, your morning at 11:30 a.m., is not useful?

史蒂文: 如果一个人需要熬夜到凌晨 3 点，然后睡到上午 11 点，那么他在上午 11 点 30 分观看早晨的阳光，还有用吗？

Andrew: No. It’s still useful. Try and keep things as regular as possible. That’s my advice. But, for people who are on a typical what we call dial, daytime active, as opposed to nocturnal, nighttime active schedule, this business of hydration, sunlight, movement, even if it’s skipping rope for five minutes, or jogging in place, or just swinging one’s arms, or getting a little walk in in the morning, immensely beneficial. If you can do a full workout first thing in the morning, great. If you don’t have time for that until later in the day, I’ll be the first to say, “Exercise when you can do it consistently.” So, if you know, don’t think that if you don’t work out in the morning, that you shouldn’t do it later. We know everybody, for sake of longevity and immediate, I guess, what we call healthspan, and lifespan, and wellbeing for that matter, should be doing at least two or three days per week of resistance training of some sort. Is true for men, women, and cardiovascular training, in order to ensure healthy neuromuscular connections, brain health, heart health. This is just very, very clear. If you do that early in the day, fine. If you do that on your lunch hour, fine. If you do that in the evening, fine. Just make sure whatever you do in order to get that p workout, whatever caffeine or pre-workout that you’re taking, doesn’t inhibit your ability to get a great night’s sleep. Because, sleep is the ultimate restorative. It’s what really is the foundation of mental health and physical health. And I can say if you want to be, because this question started off, “What can you do to be, you know, have the best dopamine system, the best energy, the best creativity, as you move through your day?” Notice your energy levels, eat well. Certainly, I believe that people should eat mostly non-processed, or minimally processed foods. That’s very clear, regardless of whether or not you’re vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or carnivore. And eat amounts and foods that allow you to have sufficient mental energy. So, for me, that largely means high-quality protein, and fibrous vegetables and fruit, throughout the day.

安德鲁: 不，它仍然有用。尽量保持规律的作息时间，这是我的建议。但对于那些按照我们所说的“昼夜节律”，也就是白天活跃，而不是夜间活跃的人来说，补充水分、阳光以及运动，即使只是跳绳 5 分钟，或者原地慢跑，或者只是挥动手臂，或者早上散步，都非常有益。如果你能够在早上完成一次完整的锻炼，那就太好了。如果你没有时间在早上锻炼，你也可以在其他时间锻炼，只要你能坚持下去。我们知道，每个人，为了健康和长寿，为了我们所说的“健康寿命”，以及“寿命”，以及“幸福感”，都应该每周至少进行两到三次的阻力训练。这适用于男性和女性，以及心血管训练，因为它可以保证健康的神经肌肉连接、大脑健康以及心脏健康。这非常重要，如果你能在早上锻炼，那就太好了；如果你只能在午休时间锻炼，那也很好；如果你只能在晚上锻炼，那也没关系。但要确保你所做的一切，以及你摄入的咖啡因或运动前补充剂，都不会影响你的睡眠质量。因为睡眠是最好的恢复剂，它是心理健康和身体健康的基础。回到你最初的问题：“如何才能拥有最好的多巴胺系统、最好的能量状态以及最好的创造力，来度过每一天？”你要注意你的能量水平，并保持健康的饮食习惯。我建议大家尽量食用未经加工，或者加工程度很低的食物，这非常重要，无论你是素食主义者、素食者、杂食动物还是肉食主义者，都要保证摄入足够的营养，让你拥有充足的脑力。对我来说，这意味着我需要摄入高质量的蛋白质、富含纤维的蔬菜以及水果。

Steven: What’s your vice?

史蒂文: 你最无法抗拒的食物是什么？

Andrew: Any carbohydrate with melted Parmesan cheese. So, thin crust pizza, pasta with with Parmesan cheese, especially if there’s like a Diet Coke nearby. Or, oh goodness, I can just consume, consume, consume. It just, very hard for me to hit my threshold with those things.

安德鲁: 任何含有融化帕尔马干酪的碳水化合物。例如薄皮披萨，或者含有帕尔马干酪的意大利面，尤其是在附近有一罐健怡可乐的时候。哦，天哪，我简直可以不停地吃，我很难控制自己对这些食物的摄入量。

Steven: This is a slight tangent, but I will return to this dopamine conversation. It’s it’s it’s related. But, when you have that thin crust pizza, or that whatever food that spikes your dopamine, for me I got a bit of a sweet tooth. So, that’s my advice, carrot cake, or something like that.

史蒂文: 这有点跑题了，但我会回到多巴胺这个话题上，它与我们刚才讨论的内容有关。当你吃薄皮披萨，或者任何让你多巴胺飙升的食物时，我呢，我比较喜欢甜食，例如胡萝卜蛋糕。

Andrew: Oh yeah, carrot cake is good. Especially if the ratio of the o of the frosting to the cake part is set right.

安德鲁: 哦，是的，胡萝卜蛋糕很好吃，尤其是当糖霜和蛋糕的比例恰到好处的时候。

Steven: It’s too much frost, or too much cake, yeah, exactly.

史蒂文: 糖霜太多，或者蛋糕太多，都不好吃，比例要恰到好处。

Andrew: Um, no, go.

安德鲁: 嗯，你说。

Steven: So, if I, I had that carrot cake yesterday, which no one knows about. I kept it to myself. But, does that mean that I’m more likely, with the understanding of dopamine, to want carrot cake again tomorrow, the day after? Because, I’ve got into a bit of a carrot cake cycle. Because, I think everybody, when they think about their relationship with sugar, understands that if they just laid off sugar for like three or four weeks, the craving seemed to die down.

史蒂文: 我昨天吃了一个胡萝卜蛋糕，这件事只有我自己知道，但我没有告诉任何人。这是否意味着，根据我对多巴胺的理解，我更有可能在明天，或者后天，再次想要吃胡萝卜蛋糕？因为，我似乎陷入了一个“胡萝卜蛋糕循环”。我认为，每个人，当他们思考自己与糖的关系时，都会明白，如果他们戒糖三四周，对糖的渴望就会减弱。

Andrew: Yeah. It’s an interesting question. I don’t think we have the exact cancer. Some would argue that we should have more of a kind of balanced relationship with food, whereby if we really crave something, that we should allow ourselves it, provided it’s not some addictive substance, or something. You don’t, addicts relapsing. Um, here we’re talking about food, we’re not talking about drugs of abuse, etc. Um,

安德鲁: 这是一个有趣的问题，我认为我们还没有找到确切的答案。有些人认为，我们应该与食物建立一种更加平衡的关系，也就是说，如果我们真的非常渴望某种食物，我们应该允许自己吃它，只要它不是某种会让人上瘾的东西。我们这里谈论的是食物，不是毒品或其他成瘾性物质。

Steven: But, is food not addictive in the same way?

史蒂文: 但是，食物也会让人上瘾吗？

Andrew: Well, food can be very compulsive. I think some people are addicted to food. Um, I, you know, I define addiction as a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure. We could probably attach to that, you know, the classic definition of addiction is where continued consumption or, um, engagement in a given activity is actually maladapted for your life, right? I mean, if you have four pieces of carrot cake this week, I doubt, given you the shape that you’re in, it’s going to shorten your life. You might not feel great, but it’s not going to shorten your life. You’re certainly not going to, like, lose your income, um, like somebody who’s a gambling addict would. Um, this kind of thing. You’re not going to throw your life away, or go rob somebody, in order to get that carrot cake, although,

安德鲁: 食物确实会让人上瘾，我认为有些人对食物上瘾。我将“上瘾”定义为让你感到快乐的事情逐渐减少。我们也可以参考“上瘾”的经典定义，也就是持续消费或参与某项活动，实际上会对你的生活造成负面影响。例如，如果你这周吃了四块胡萝卜蛋糕，考虑到你的体型，我怀疑它会缩短你的寿命。你可能不会感觉很好，但它不会缩短你的寿命。你当然不会像那些赌博成瘾的人一样，为了赌博而失去你的收入，你也不会为了吃一块胡萝卜蛋糕而放弃你的生活，或者去抢劫别人。

Steven: But, but, is it doing that that, and I’m pointing now at the dopamine wave thing, am I having a dopamine crash?

史蒂文: 但是，但是，它会让我经历多巴胺的波动吗？我是在经历多巴胺崩溃吗？

Andrew: You are. And Anna Lembke describes this best, um, and you can do this experiment. It’s kind of a fun experiment for you, chocolate lovers. Abstain from chocolate for, say, a week. And then, pick your favorite chocolate, and take a little piece of that chocolate and put it in your mouth, and taste it. And of course, it will taste delicious. It’ll taste wonderful. But, if you notice very quickly, your brain shifts to a sense of wanting more, not so much savoring the chocolate that you’re eating, but wanting more. And you’re thinking about, “Well, how much am I going to take? I’m going take this square. Oh, that other square next to it broke off a little bit. Guess I got to eat that one too.” So, that’s the dopamine system in action. And then, what happens is, you eat half the chocolate thing, and you go, “Oh, I don’t feel that good about it, but I kind of want more anyway.” Why? Well, you’re in that dopamine trough. The same amount of something is giving you diminishing returns. What’s the way to make that chocolate take taste absolutely fantastic again? Abstain.

安德鲁: 是的，你在经历多巴胺崩溃。安娜·伦布克对这一点的描述最为准确，你可以做一个实验，这是一个很有趣的实验，巧克力爱好者们可以试试。戒掉巧克力一周，然后，选择你最喜欢的巧克力，取一小块放进嘴里，品尝它。它尝起来当然很美味，但如果你仔细观察，你会很快发现，你的大脑会想要更多，你并不是在享受你正在吃的巧克力，你只是想要更多。你会想：“我要吃多少呢？我要吃这一块。哦，旁边的那一块也断掉了，我想我也要把它吃了。”这就是多巴胺系统在起作用。然后，你吃掉了半块巧克力，你会想：“哦，我感觉不太好，但我还是想要更多。”为什么？因为你正处于多巴胺的低谷，相同数量的巧克力带给你的满足感越来越少。想要让巧克力再次变得美味无比，唯一的办法就是戒掉它。

Now, there’s also an interesting phenomenon, and this is why I said I can’t be exactly sure how to answer your question accurately, that is, I have several friends, just by way of example, who reached their 40s quite overweight, 50s quite overweight, 30 to 60 pounds overweight, and they’d come to me, and they’d say, “I want to lose weight.” Every single one of them has been highly successful in rapidly losing that weight, and keeping it off, the following way. And I’m not a nutritionist, I say, “You can eat meat, fish, eggs, chicken, fruit and vegetables, and that’s it. And drink water and caffeine, and don’t consume calories and beverages.” And every single one of them, lost 30, 60 pounds, and has kept it off. Now, Layne Norton and I, who are friends and colleagues in the health space, he’ll say, “Well, they created a caloric deficit, and so they lost weight.” I’d say, “Absolutely.” I would also say, and I think Layne would probably agree, although there’s no randomized control trial to prove this, that in eating that way, mostly whole unprocessed, or minimally processed foods, they did several things as well. One is, you start to learn the relationship between how something tastes, its caloric value, its micronutrient and macronutrient value.

还有一个有趣的现象，这就是为什么我说我无法准确地回答你的问题。我举几个例子，我有一些朋友，他们在四五十岁的时候体重超标，超重了 30 到 60 磅，他们来找我，说：“我想减肥。”他们中的每一个人都成功地快速减掉了体重，并一直保持着理想的体重。我并不是一名营养师，但我告诉他们：“你可以吃肉、鱼、蛋、鸡肉、水果和蔬菜，只能吃这些，喝水和咖啡，不要从饮料中摄入卡路里。”他们每个人都减掉了 30 到 60 磅，并且一直保持着。我的朋友兼同事，莱恩·诺顿，他也是一名健康领域的专家，他会说：“他们减少了卡路里的摄入，所以他们减掉了体重。”我会说：“没错。”我也想说，我相信莱恩也会同意我的观点，虽然目前还没有随机对照试验来证明这一点，但通过这种饮食方式，也就是主要食用未经加工或加工程度很低的食物，他们还收获了其他一些好处。首先，你会开始了解食物的味道、它的热量值、它的微量营养素以及宏量营养素之间的关系。

What do I mean? When you eat a steak, like, let’s say, a 12-ounce ribeye. If that’s in your nutrition plan, meaning you allow yourself red meat, let’s say you eat that, you taste it, it’s very savory, hopefully it tastes really good if it’s cooked properly, it’s a great cut, and your brain learns the relationship between steak and calories, and nutrients, and amino acids. There’s this whole amino acid foraging hypothesis of nutrition. Then, you eat fruit, you taste the fruit, you actually taste it. Now, this is far and away different than if you’re consuming hoagy sandwiches, and hamburgers and cheeseburgers. There’s something about removing the bread, there’s something about removing, removing the pasta, there’s something about removing those foods that I believe has nothing to do with those foods being bad. In fact, I love bread and pasta, high-quality bread and pasta, and I do consume those. But, I’m not trying to lose weight, nor gain weight.

这是什么意思呢？当你吃一块牛排的时候，例如一块 12 盎司的肋眼牛排。如果它在你的营养计划中，也就是说你允许自己吃红肉，你吃下它，品尝它的味道，它非常美味，如果烹饪得当，它会更加美味，这是一块很棒的牛排。你的大脑会学习到牛排和卡路里、营养素以及氨基酸之间的关系。有一种关于营养的氨基酸觅食假说。然后，你吃水果，你品尝水果的味道，你真正地品尝它的味道。这与你吃三明治、汉堡以及芝士汉堡完全不同。我认为，去掉面包，去掉意大利面，去掉这些食物，并不意味着这些食物不好。事实上，我喜欢面包和意大利面，我喜欢高质量的面包和意大利面，我也会吃这些食物。但我并没有试图减肥，也没有试图增重。

When people eat that way, meat, fish, eggs, chicken, fruits and vegetables, and nothing else, for a couple of months, what every single one of them says is, “Well, then we had this party, and you know, the kids were having birthday cake, so I decided to allow myself a slice of cake.” They ate it, and it tastes did, disgusting to them, or they, in some cases threw up, or they just felt like it was gross. Whatever positive association they had with it before, it no longer exists. And then, they get right back on their, let’s call it, diet, and they continue along their way. And they’re very relieved to learn that they actually enjoy healthy foods.

当人们坚持这种饮食方式，只吃肉、鱼、蛋、鸡肉、水果和蔬菜，其他什么都不吃，持续几个月后，他们每个人都会说：“我们参加了一个派对，孩子们在吃生日蛋糕，所以我决定也吃一块蛋糕。”他们吃了一口蛋糕，然后就觉得非常恶心，有些人甚至吐了出来，或者他们只是觉得它很糟糕。他们之前对蛋糕的任何美好联想都消失了。然后，他们会立即回到他们的饮食计划中，继续坚持下去。他们非常欣慰地发现，他们开始喜欢健康的食物了。

Steven: I think that we can rewire, in fact we know that you can rewire your association between nutritive value, taste of food, calories and micronutrients. And so, when I hear about these highly restrictive elimination diets, where people do only meat, which, frankly, does not seem healthy to me. I think some fiber from other sources is good, although I’m sure Paul Saladino will come after me, probably with a drumstick, or something. Jord, or Jord, whatever Jordan’s doing, seems to be working for Jordan. So, I’m not goingon to argue. People should do as they will. But, you know, um, I’m an omnivore and enjoy that. But, I think when people do elimination type diets, the more important thing is that they’re learning this association between taste and calories, that seems to really work for them, and the pleasure of eating certain foods, and really dropping into the the quality and the taste of that food.

史蒂文: 我认为，我们可以重新 rewiring 我们对食物的认知，事实上，我们知道，你可以重新建立你对营养价值、食物味道、卡路里和微量营养素之间的联系。所以，当我听到那些严格的禁食疗法，例如只吃肉，坦白说，在我看来这并不健康。我认为从其他食物中获取一些纤维是有益的，虽然我相信保罗·萨拉迪诺可能会反驳我，他可能会拿着鸡腿来反驳我。乔丹的饮食方法似乎对他很有效，我不会对此进行争论，每个人都应该选择适合自己的饮食方式。我是一个杂食动物，并且很喜欢这种饮食方式。但我认为，当人们进行禁食疗法的时候，更重要的是，他们正在学习食物的味道和卡路里之间的关系，这似乎对他们非常有效，他们也开始享受吃某些食物的乐趣，真正地去品尝食物的味道和品质。

When we crave a food, and it’s kind of an indulgence food like chocolate, or carrot cake or something, it’s more along this dopamine, uh, transition, from peak to trough. Now, when I, I love steak. My dad’s Argentine, I’m half-Argentine, so I love a great beef chorizo, or like a you know like I love red meat. But, I don’t eat two ribeyes. I eat one, and I’m good. And so, I think that there’s something very sating about high nutritive quality food that includes fruits and vegetables. And the vegans have their choices, and the vegetarians have their choices. And so, so much of what we think about when we think about dopamine and food, is yes, highly processed foods, candy, packaged goods, cookies, chips, they drive this craving for more. But, people don’t actually enjoy them that much, they just require them, or at least they think they require them. So, I encourage anyone who feels addicted to those foods, to take a you know, healthy approach. You know, consume enough calories, don’t go on a crash diet, but try eating really high-quality unprocessed, or minimally processed foods for just a couple of weeks. At first, it’s murder. They just can’t do it. And then, inevitably, they call me, and they say, “I feel so much better, and I don’t even want that stuff anymore.”

当我们渴望某种食物，例如巧克力或胡萝卜蛋糕这类让人放纵的食物时，我们的多巴胺水平会经历从峰值到低谷的波动。我非常喜欢吃牛排，我的父亲是阿根廷人，我有一半的阿根廷血统，所以我喜欢吃美味的牛肉香肠，我喜欢吃红肉。但我不会吃两块肋眼牛排，我吃一块就够了。我认为，那些富含营养的食物，包括水果和蔬菜，能够带给我们强烈的满足感。素食主义者有他们的选择，素食者也有他们的选择。所以，当我们思考多巴胺和食物之间的关系时，我们会发现，那些高度加工的食品，例如糖果、包装食品、饼干和薯条，会让我们渴望吃得更多。但人们实际上并不喜欢这些食物，他们只是需要它们，或者至少他们认为他们需要它们。所以，我建议那些觉得自己对这些食物上瘾的人，尝试一种更加健康的饮食方式。你要保证摄入足够的卡路里，不要进行极端的节食，试着只吃那些高质量的未经加工或加工程度很低的食物，坚持几周。一开始，你可能会觉得很难做到，但最终，他们会告诉我：“我感觉好多了，我甚至不再想吃那些垃圾食品了。

Steven: It’s interesting how that then correlates with your own motivation. And I, it’s, we fly out here to do this podcast, and we come out sometimes for two weeks, three weeks, sometimes even four weeks weeks. And we all eat the same thing pretty much, throughout the day, for those four weeks. So, it’s almost a dietary intervention for me. Because, when we finish recording, my food is going to be there, and I know what it’s going to be. It’s going to be basically a salad, with meat in it, certain vegetables, etc. And so, it becomes this like intervention. Going to LA is this dietary intervention. What happens is, when I come here and have that salad every day, with various different meats, and various different vegetables, every day, is my motivation to go to the gym for some reason, improves.

史蒂文: 有趣的是，这与你的动力水平是如何关联的。我们飞到这里来录制播客节目，有时会待两周、三周，有时甚至四周。在这段时间里，我们每天都吃同样的食物，这对我来说几乎是一种饮食干预。因为，当我们完成录制后，我的食物会送到我面前，我知道它会是什么，它基本上是一份沙拉，里面有肉和一些蔬菜。所以，这就像是一种饮食干预，来洛杉矶就相当于进行一次饮食干预。当我来到这里，每天都吃同样的沙拉，搭配不同的肉类和蔬菜时，我的健身动力不知何故提高了。

Andrew: Mh.

安德鲁: 嗯。

Steven: My sleep end up improving, and it’s like my, that one sort of dietary intervention, has this really downstream impact on everything else. I get in the, I get in the best shape of my life, I’m motivated, I feel good, I drive along. It might also be the sunshine out here, but. And I just, I, I think people don’t realize that, even as you say, a week or two, having that dietary intervention intervention, cutting out the crap, can have such a big reframing on your perception of food, how you experience it. And now I’m excited about the bloody salad.

史蒂文: 我的睡眠质量也提高了，那种饮食干预对我的其他方面都产生了积极的影响。我的身体状态达到了最佳，我充满动力，感觉很棒，并且能够一直保持这种状态。这可能也与这里充足的阳光有关。我认为，人们并没有意识到，正如你所说，仅仅进行一两周的饮食干预，戒掉那些垃圾食品，就能极大地改变你对食物的感知以及你的饮食体验。我现在甚至开始期待吃那些沙拉了。

Andrew: Yeah. It’s wild how healthy foods become more attractive us, the more we consume them, and the more we avoid unhealthy foods. I think also a lot of people don’t know how great you can feel, getting some morning sunlike, great sleep, eating nutritious food. And once they do, once they experience that lift and energy and mood, it’s kind of addictive in its own right. Now, I also think it’s important to not be too restrictive, right? You know, around the holidays or something. I I mean, I love a great slice of pie. Like I do these things. I think if one gets enough movement, then you’re fine. Um, you know, if nothing else, this whole, um, kind of trend toward the use of these GLP-1, glucagon-like peptide agonist, like Ozempic and Mounjaro, if it’s taught us anything, it’s that people are obese because they consume too many calories. They just ingest too much, relative to their activity levels. And here, in particular, in the United States, people are walking and moving far less. Most people get no regular exercise, and they consume about 3,500 calories per day on average. So, they’re just on a steady weight increase for most of their life. More activity, less food intake, is fairly easy to accomplish, if you do just a few subtle things. So, there are these levers, these major levers. Like eating better, as you said, “Meat and salads.” I mean, it’s one of the most satiating meals you can have. I also find that if I consume fewer carbohydrates during the day, this is just me, it runs countercurrent to most everything you’ll read out there. But, I like to fast, essentially, until about 11:00 or noon, just cuz I’m not hungry. I like to exercise in the morning, but then I’ll have a lunch that is some meat, some salad, maybe starch like a bowl of oatmeal or rice, but not a whole lot. And then, toward evening, my final meal, you know, dinner, which is around 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. generally, includes a few more starches and a little less protein, and I sleep best that way. Some people, it’s the opposite. They like a big bowl of oatmeal, and just a couple of eggs in the morning, and you know, and some nuts in the afternoon, and then they like a big steak for dinner. You know, I think everybody’s slightly different. Some people are just, naturally, have more energy. I think about Jocko Willink, I mean the guy has so much energy. And I think it’s not a coincidence that he works out at 4:30 in the morning. I think that if you work out early in the day, you often have more energy throughout the day. I find, if I get my workout done before 9:00 a.m., I have more energy all day long. However, if I work out mid-morning, late morning, pretty sleepy in the afternoon.

安德鲁: 是的，有趣的是，我们吃的健康食品越多，就会越喜欢它们，而我们避免不健康的食品越多，就越不喜欢它们。我认为很多人并不知道，早上晒晒太阳，睡个好觉，吃有营养的食物，会让人感觉多么棒。一旦他们体验过这种充满活力和好心情的感觉，他们就会迷恋上这种感觉。当然，我们也不要太 restrictive，例如在假期或其他特殊的日子里，我们可以适当地放纵一下自己。我喜欢吃派，我认为，只要一个人有足够的运动量，偶尔吃一些甜食也没关系。那些治疗肥胖的药物，例如 Ozempic 和 Mounjaro，这类胰高血糖素样肽-1 受体激动剂，如果它们教会了我们什么，那就是，人们之所以肥胖，是因为他们摄入了过多的卡路里。相对于他们的活动量，他们的食量太大了。尤其是在美国，人们走路和运动的时间越来越少，大多数人没有规律的锻炼习惯，他们平均每天摄入大约 3500 卡路里。所以，他们一生中的大部分时间体重都在稳步增长。如果你能够做到以下几点，你就能很容易地控制体重：增加运动量，减少食量。所以，有一些方法，一些非常有效的方法，可以帮助我们改善健康状况，例如，正如你所说，健康饮食，“肉类和沙拉”，这是一种非常健康的食物组合。我还发现，如果我在白天少吃一些碳水化合物，这只是我个人的经验，它与你通常看到的建议相悖。但我喜欢禁食，直到大约上午 11 点或中午，因为我不觉得饿。我喜欢在早上锻炼，然后吃一顿午餐，包括一些肉类、沙拉，以及一些淀粉类食物，例如一碗燕麦粥或米饭，但我不会吃太多。然后，在晚上 7 点或 8 点左右，我会吃晚餐，这一餐会包含更多的淀粉类食物，以及少量的蛋白质，这种饮食方式让我睡得更好。有些人则正好相反，他们喜欢早上吃一大碗燕麦粥，配上几个鸡蛋，下午吃一些坚果，晚上吃一大块牛排。我认为，每个人的身体状况都略有不同，有些人天生就精力更充沛。例如乔科·威林克，他精力非常充沛，我认为他之所以能在早上 4 点 30 分起床锻炼，并不是巧合。如果你在早上锻炼，你通常一整天都会更有精力。我发现，如果我在上午 9 点之前完成锻炼，我一整天都会精力充沛。但如果我在上午 10 点或 11 点锻炼，我下午就会感到很困。

Steven: Everybody’s different. Is there, like, a physiological rationale for that?

史蒂文: 每个人的情况都不一样，这背后有生理学上的解释吗？

Andrew: There probably is. You know, as our body temperature rises in the morning, we are waking up. So, when we exercise, we accelerate that transition toward being more alert. Now, in the afternoon, when our body temperature typically peaks, after that, is usually when we get a bit sleepy. Typically after lunch, people get sleepy, sometimes because of the volume of food they they’ve eaten. Most often, it’s because they’ve hit that temperature peak in the early afternoon. And we know that as body temperature drops 1 to 3 degrees in the evening and nighttime, that’s when we fall asleep. In fact, in order to fall asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about 1 to 3°. This is why, you know, sticking a foot out of the you know the comforter, or if you have a cooling mattress, which some people require because they run hot, or keeping the room cool, facilitates falling asleep, although it’s not completely the case.

安德鲁: 可能是有生理学解释的。你知道，我们的体温在早上会升高，我们因此而醒来。所以，当我们进行锻炼时，我们会加速这种转变，让我们更加警觉。而在下午，当我们的体温达到峰值后，我们通常会感到困倦。通常在午餐后，人们会感到困倦，有时是因为他们吃得太多，但更多的时候是因为他们的体温在下午早些时候达到了峰值。我们知道，当晚上和夜间体温下降 1 到 3 度时，我们就会入睡。事实上，为了入睡，你的体温必须下降 1 到 3 度。这就是为什么有些人会把一只脚伸出被子，或者使用降温床垫，有些人需要降温床垫，因为他们的体温比较高，或者保持房间凉爽，这都有助于入睡，虽然这并不是全部原因。

So, I should mention, the best scenario would be, cool room with warm blankets to fall asleep, and then, toward morning, sort of a warmer environment. We actually get a little bit more rapid eye movement sleep, dream sleep, elaborate dream sleep, toward morning. So, you can get really nuanced in this stuff, all the biohackers know this. But, you know, basically, if you work out early in the day, you know, before 8:00 or 9:00 a.m., it’s going to accelerate that increase in body temperature, and you’ll feel more alert.

所以，我应该补充一点，最好的睡眠环境是，凉爽的房间，温暖的毯子，这样可以帮助你快速入睡，然后，到了早上，温度稍微高一些的环境，会让你睡得更好。我们会在接近早上的时候，获得更多的快速眼动睡眠，也就是梦境睡眠，以及更加丰富的梦境体验。所以，你可以在这方面进行非常细致的调整，所有的生物黑客都知道这一点。但总的来说，如果你在早上 8 点或 9 点之前进行锻炼，它会加速你的体温升高，你会感觉更加警觉。

There’s also this beautiful phenomenon in circadian biology called entrainment. Whereby, let’s say you’re not a morning person, you hate mornings. If you force yourself to get up and exercise at, say, 6:00 a.m., for three days in a row, by the fourth day, you’ll naturally start waking up around that time. Because, the circadian clock of the brain, we call the supermatic nucleus, the main inputs that drive when you’re alert, and when you want to be asleep, are sunlight exposure to the eyes, this is the whole basis for that morning sunlight exposure, physical activity, when you eat, and social engagement. And there could be a whole discussion about this, but suffice to say that if you start getting some morning light, some exercise, maybe even before the sun comes out, some caffeine, hydration, and then a meal, in the early part of the day, your body will start to anticipate all of those activities. And even if you’re a so-called “night owl”, you’ll start to shift your clock toward being an early riser. And lo and behold, around 10:00 or 11:00 p.m., you’ll start to notice you’re getting sleepy. And you just have to have the discipline to turn off the phone, put in the other room, and go to sleep.

在昼夜节律生物学中，有一种叫做“同调”的有趣现象。假如你不是早起的人，并且讨厌早晨，但如果你强迫自己连续三天在早上6点起床锻炼，到第四天时，你的身体就会自然地在那个时间左右醒来。这是因为大脑中的昼夜节律钟，也就是我们称之为视交叉上核的部分，主要通过阳光照射、身体活动、饮食时间和社交活动来决定你什么时候清醒，什么时候想要睡觉。虽然关于这一点可以进行深入讨论，但简单来说，如果你每天早上接受一些阳光，进行一些锻炼，甚至在太阳出来前喝点咖啡、补充水分，并且在早些时候吃顿饭，你的身体就会开始适应这些活动。即使你原本是个“夜猫子”，你的生物钟也会逐渐向早起转变。到晚上10点或11点，你会发现自己开始感到困倦。此时，你只需要足够的自律，关掉手机，放在另一个房间，然后去睡觉。

Steven: I I wonder that, I do wonder if I’m a night hour because of bad habits, or because of some kind of biology.

史蒂文: 我很好奇，我是一个夜猫子是因为坏习惯，还是因为我的生理构造？

Andrew: Typically, people fall into one of three categories, and it is genetically determined of. You can be a morning person, a more typical would be somebody who goes to sleep somewhere between 10:30 and midnight, wakes up between 6:00 and 8:00 a.m. And then, the night owls who like to stay up till 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, wake up around you know 10:00 or 11:00 a.m. It changes with age. I’m a bit of a weirdo in the sense that I like to do most of my mental and physical work between 6:00 a.m. and noon, then I’m not super effective in the afternoon. My brain doesn’t work so well. I can take care of some little things unless I offset that, and then between 6:00 p.m. and midnight, I’m alert again. I don’t know, maybe it’s my Argentine roots. Who knows. So, so, given it’s the afternoon now, and I knew that we were going to be podcasting, what I did is I did, indeed, get up at 6:45 a.m., I did a bunch of work this morning for the podcast, some other things, and then on the way here I did a non-sleep deep rest. I listened to that for about 10 minutes. I kind of sensed I was somewhere in sleep, I don’t quite recall. And then, when we arrived, I’m a little bit groggy, a little bit of hydration, a little bit of caffeine, and I feel completely alert. So, you can learn to offset these troughs and energy. I think that at every stage of life, meaning for every 5-year block of life, you can kind of predict what the best schedule for you would be. So, when you’re a baby, you slept all the time, that’s your best schedule. When you were an adolescent, it was different. I have a niece. She’s 17, and I went and stayed with my sister recently. And it was unbelievable. She went to bed at 10:30 at night, probably fell asleep at midnight, because she was on her iPad with her friends. She would wake up the next day at noon, it’s summertime, get up, say hello, get a glass of water, go back to sleep and sleep for another hour. And that’s exactly what she should be doing. Why? Because she’s growing, right? She’s a she’s, youth. In youth. In your 30s, it might be a different schedule. In your 40s, a different schedule. And then, of course, kids come along and they force the schedule. So, I would say whatever stage of life you’re in, you probably know what the best schedule is for you, and you just have to work with the realities of life. But, if you can adhere to that, knowing, “Okay, you have a peak in energy in focus at this hour, or peeking energy in focus at that hour,” by all means, do it.

安德鲁: 通常，人们可以分为三种类型，这种分类是由基因决定的。你可能是一个早起的人，也可能是一个更典型的人，这类人通常在晚上10:30到午夜之间入睡，早上6:00到8:00之间醒来。然后还有夜猫子，他们喜欢熬夜到凌晨1:00或2:00，早上大约在10:00或11:00醒来。随着年龄的增长，这些作息习惯会发生变化。我有点特别，因为我喜欢在早上6:00到中午之间进行大部分的脑力和体力工作，而下午的效率较低。我的大脑在下午不太运转良好，但如果我调整一下状态，就可以处理一些小任务，然后在下午6:00到午夜之间又恢复活力。我不确定，也许这是因为我的阿根廷血统。谁知道呢。因为现在是下午，而我知道我们要录播客，所以我确实在早上6:45起床，完成了一些播客相关的工作，还处理了一些其他事情。在来的路上，我进行了大约10分钟的深度休息，虽然有点像是在睡觉，但我不太记得了。当我们到达时，我有点昏昏欲睡，但喝了点水和咖啡后，现在感觉完全清醒了。因此，你可以学会如何应对这些能量低谷。我认为在生命的每个阶段，你都可以大致预测出最适合自己的作息时间。比如，婴儿时期，你几乎全天都在睡觉，这就是最好的作息安排。青春期的作息安排则有所不同。我有一个17岁的侄女，最近我去拜访了她。她晚上10:30上床，大概在午夜睡着，因为她在用iPad和朋友聊天。第二天中午醒来，这是夏天，她起床打了个招呼，喝了杯水，然后又睡了一个小时。这正是她应该做的，因为她还在长身体。在你30多岁的时候，作息时间可能会改变。到了40多岁，作息时间也会不同。然后，孩子们的到来可能会迫使你改变作息安排。所以，我想说，无论你处在哪个年龄段，你大概都知道什么样的作息安排最适合自己，只要你能顺应生活的现实。如果你能坚持自己的最佳作息时间，比如在某个时间段能量和专注力达到高峰，那么尽量按照这个时间表来安排生活。

I mean, Rick Rubin shared, um, when he came on my podcast, that his best day is to transition slowly into the day, take a walk outside in the sun in the morning, slowly into the day, and then he does his work, really his main focused work, in the afternoon and in the evening. Some people are more night-shifted, some people are more morning-shifted. I tend to get my best ideas I think, right before I go to sleep, which is annoying, because there’s this temptation to go to my laptop and begin writing and begin working.

例如，里克·鲁宾在我的播客节目中分享过，他最理想的一天是慢慢地开始，早上在阳光下散步，然后在下午和晚上进行工作，完成那些需要高度集中注意力的工作。有些人更喜欢在晚上工作，有些人更喜欢在早上工作。而我通常会在睡觉前获得一些灵感，这很烦人，因为我总是想要打开笔记本电脑，开始写作，开始工作。

Steven: Do you write them down?

史蒂文: 你会把它们记录下来吗？

Andrew: Yes.

安德鲁: 是的。

Steven: Yeah.

史蒂文: 好的。

Andrew: I write down little cues, and then team will know, because it’s useful when I’m on this time frame, because my team in the UK are getting my my, memos at 7:00 a.m. there, right? But, they don’t know that I’m, it’s like midnight or 1:00 a.m. here.

安德鲁: 我会写下一些简单的提示，我的团队会知道我指的是什么，因为这在我处于这个时间段时很有用，因为我在英国的团队会在那里早上 7 点收到我的备忘录。但他们不知道，此时已经是我的午夜或凌晨 1 点了。

I’m so glad you mentioned this. I think for people who are interested in having a great life, a great career, it’s very important to have a mode of capture. So, for me, um, it’s this notebook. And it’s not just blank pages in front of me, I promise, these are just like little little things that come to mind, um, it doesn’t matter what’s here, um, and I place them into the notebook. And then, at the end of each week or so, or if I’m on a plane, I’ll start to look back and see, you know, what are the ideas that feel sticky? Like, “Oh, there’s something there, there’s like a concept there.” I’m actually thinking about doing a a a drawing book to teach neuroscience at some point. I’m also very interested in animals, so I was listing out, this is very, um, embarrassing, but, the different animals that I feel I embodied at different stages of my life, and where I’m at now, because of the different energies. And, is very personal, right? Like, the sense that it’s not going to mean much in the kind of classic neuroscience sense. But, I think having a mode of capture for these thoughts that spontaneously arise out of our unconscious mind. I mean, that’s what’s happening when you’re falling asleep. Your conscious mind, which is involved in thinking and planning and organizing knowledge, is starting to tire, those prefrontal cortex circuits are starting to tire. And your unconscious mind, which is the main driver of all your ideas, and so much of what you you are about as an individual, are starting to geyser to the surface. This is why, in dreams, even though it occurs in symbols, we are playing with different ideas, and ordering of different ideas. This is not Freudian. Okay? This is not just Jungian psychology. We had an expert in this, you know, Dr. Paul Ketti, did a mental health series on our podcast, and he said, “You know, the bulk of your brain activity, besides the stuff that’s just regulating breathing and heart rate and digestion, etc., is really devoted to this unconscious processing.” It’s taking events from your childhood, plans that you have that you don’t even know yet that aren’t aware of yet, experiences that are happening today, and and looking at those from different perspectives and offering those to you in in, what, in dreams.

我很高兴你提到了这一点。我认为，对于那些想要拥有美好生活、成功事业的人来说，拥有一种捕捉灵感的工具非常重要。对我来说，这本笔记本就是我的灵感捕捉工具。我向你保证，它不仅仅是一些空白页，我会把所有出现在我脑海中的想法，无论大小，都记录下来。然后，在大约每周结束的时候，或者当我坐飞机的时候，我会回顾这些想法，看看哪些想法值得进一步思考，例如：“哦，这个想法很有意思，它可能是一个很棒的概念。”我甚至在考虑写一本关于神经科学的漫画书。我对动物也很感兴趣，我列出了我在人生不同阶段感觉自己像的不同动物，以及我现在感觉自己像的动物，因为不同的动物拥有不同的能量。这听起来可能很奇怪，它在经典的神经科学领域可能没有太大的意义。但我认为，拥有一种捕捉灵感的方式，来捕捉那些从我们潜意识中自发产生的想法，非常重要。这就是我们在入睡时发生的事情。我们的意识，它负责思考、计划以及组织信息，开始变得疲惫，前额叶皮层的回路开始变得疲倦。而我们的潜意识，它是所有想法的源泉，它也是我们作为一个个体的核心，开始活跃起来。这就是为什么我们会做梦，即使梦境以符号的形式出现，我们仍然在玩味不同的想法，并以不同的方式组织它们。这不是弗洛伊德式的梦境解析，也不是荣格心理学。我们邀请了一位这方面的专家，保罗·凯蒂博士，他参与了我们播客节目中的心理健康系列节目。他说：“除了调节呼吸、心率以及消化等基本功能之外，我们的大部分大脑活动都 devoted to 潜意识的处理。”它会提取我们童年时期的记忆，以及我们未来计划的雏形，即使我们还没有意识到这些计划，还有我们今天经历的事情，并从不同的角度审视它们，然后以梦的形式呈现给我们。

What are dreams? In stories, in narratives that are really disrupted in space and time. A lot can happen in a short period of time, then you’re in a different room, dreams are very distorted in terms of their representation. But, when you’re falling asleep, you’re in that pseudo awake state, obviously, where you’re thinking, planning, and action parts of your brain, your logical mind, is turned off. And these ideas are geysering to the surface. And this is why sometimes people have their best ideas in the shower, while walking, when they’re not trying to have ideas. And you can seeed this by writing down a few things before you go to sleep, you can think, “You know, like, wondering what to do next year? Don’t know. Okay, maybe it’s that vague.” Does that mean you’ll have a dream that solves it that night? Maybe. Probably not. But, chances are, if you pay attention to, you know, during the day, you’ll be walking along, or, for some reason this always happens to me when I’m, um, uh, urinating. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. Like I go, like, I don’t know, maybe it’s because I’m relaxed, like, I go, especially if I’m in nature, and I’m hiking, I’ll go like, take a, take a pee behind a tree, and I, I be like, “Oh, I have an idea.” I don’t know why it is. I think it’s because I’m not thinking about doing anything, except, you know, I’m taking a leak behind a tree. I guess this is very forthcoming for me to admit this, but. You know, some people stay in the shower, other people while they’re running.

什么是梦？梦就是故事，是叙述，它们在时间和空间上被打乱了。许多事情可以在很短的时间内发生，然后你就会出现在另一个房间里，梦境的呈现方式是扭曲的。但当你即将入睡的时候，你会进入一种介于清醒和睡眠之间的状态，你大脑中负责思考、计划和行动的部分，也就是你的逻辑思维，会被关闭。而那些潜藏在你意识深处的想法会像间歇泉一样喷涌而出。这就是为什么有些人会在淋浴时、散步时，或者在他们没有刻意思考的时候，获得灵感。你可以在睡觉前写下一些问题，例如：“明年我应该做什么呢？我不知道。”也许你只是有一些模糊的想法，这并不意味着你会在当天晚上梦到解决方案。也许会，但很可能不会。但如果你留意的话，你会发现，在白天，当你走路的时候，或者，不知道为什么，我总是在小便的时候，会突然冒出一些想法。我不知道为什么，也许是因为我比较放松。尤其是在大自然中，当我徒步旅行的时候，我会去树后面小便，然后我会突然想到：“哦，我有一个想法了。”我不知道为什么会这样，我认为这是因为我没有刻意去思考任何事情，我只是在小便而已。我知道这听起来可能有点奇怪，有些人会在淋浴时获得灵感，有些人会在跑步的时候获得灵感。

One thing that I think is really use useful for coming up with ideas, I seem to be mentioning Rick a lot today, but, um, one thing I observed when I spent time with Rick, is he has a kind of a practice, although he’s never said this formally, where he’ll be very still with his eyes closed. And I thought, “Maybe he’s meditating, maybe he’s, um, sleeping,” and it turns out he told me that his mind is very active in that time, even though his body is very still. Now, that sparked something in me, because I have a guest, or had a guest on my podcast, by the name of Karl Deisseroth. He’s one of the luminaries in the field of neuroscience, and one of the best bioengineers in the world. He’s also a psychiatrist, a brilliant guy. And when he came on my podcast, he said that he has a practice, every night, after he puts his five kids to sleep. He’s one of these hyperproductive people where he sits down, and he makes himself stay as completely still as possible, and forces himself to think in complete sentences. And I thought, “This is interesting,” because it was also reported or purported that Einstein would take walks, and then occasionally just stop and let his mind continue in thinking, while he stopped his body. And when you start looking back through history of science, history of music, etc., you’ll find that there are these hyper creative, hyperproductive people that have a practice of making their body completely still and their mind very active. Not meditation, where you’re trying to just focus on your breathing, but they’re actually actively thinking, while keeping their body very still. Now, I find that fascinating.

我认为，有一种方法可以帮助人们更好地获得灵感，我今天似乎经常提到里克，但我在与里克相处时发现，他有一种练习方法，虽然他从未正式地介绍过这种方法，他会闭上眼睛，静静地坐着。我当时想：“他是在冥想吗？或者是在睡觉？”后来他告诉我，在那段时间里，他的大脑非常活跃，即使他的身体保持静止。这让我想到，我曾经在我的播客节目中采访过一位名叫卡尔·戴瑟罗斯的嘉宾。他是神经科学领域的 luminaries 之一，也是世界上最优秀的生物工程师之一，他同时也是一名精神病学家，一位非常聪明的人。他在我的节目中分享说，他每天晚上都会进行一项练习，在他哄他的五个孩子睡觉之后。他是一个非常高效的人，他会坐下来，让自己尽可能地保持静止，并强迫自己用完整的句子思考。我觉得这很有趣，因为据说爱因斯坦也会散步，并且会偶尔停下来，让他的大脑继续思考，而他的身体保持静止。当你回顾科学史、音乐史等等时，你会发现，许多富有创造力、高效率的人，他们都有一种让身体完全静止，而大脑保持活跃的练习方法。这不是冥想，你并不是在专注于你的呼吸，而是在积极地思考，同时保持身体静止。我觉得这很 fascinating。

I also find it fascinating that some people, for instance myself, if I take a long run, which I do every Sunday, I make it a point to run for 60 to 90 minutes every Sunday, not fast, but I just go, go, go, go, go, go. Inevitably, during those runs, I come up with some of my best ideas. It’s a, it puts my brain into a state where I can, things geyser up from my unconscious mind. And so, that state of mind is one in which the body is very active, and I’m not trying to think about anything. So, you have these two inverse states. One is body still, mind active, the other is body active, mind kind of freerunning, kind of just like spooling out. When I’m running, I’m not thinking about anything, and then ideas spring to the surface.

我还发现，有些人，例如我自己，会在长时间的跑步过程中获得灵感。我每个星期天都会跑步，我会坚持跑 60 到 90 分钟，速度不快，但我一直在跑，跑，跑。不可避免地，在跑步的过程中，我会想出一些很棒的想法，它会让我的大脑进入一种特殊的 状态，我的潜意识会变得活跃起来。所以，在这种状态下，我的身体非常活跃，而我的大脑没有刻意去思考任何事情。所以，存在着两种截然相反的状态：一种是身体静止，大脑活跃；另一种是身体活跃，大脑自由运转，就像在 spooling out。当我跑步的时候，我没有思考任何事情，但灵感会突然出现在我的脑海中。

In the neuroscience of creativity, we know that there’s a meditation practice that’s been studied, called open monitoring meditation. Most typical meditation is you sit, or lie down, close your eyes, maybe lotus position, maybe not, and you concentrate on your breathing. You bring your attention constantly back to your third eye center. Work from Wendy Suzuki’s laboratory at NYU has shown just 10 to 13 minutes of that practice every day can improve memory, in particular working memory, which is your ability to keep thoughts online, lower stress, and other benefits. There’s a different form of meditation, which is open monitoring meditation. Where you sit or lie down, close your eyes, and you actually are paying attention to everything around you. You focus your attention, there in the room, there in the room, there in the room, or you just let it all all just kind of sift over you. You’re not actually focusing on your breathing. And that practice of open monitoring meditation is associated with improved creative capacity. Now, “improved creative capacity” in air quotes, is something that’s measured in a laboratory. So, synthesis of new ideas, creative solutions to a puzzle, etc. We’re not talking about writing great works of music. But, in a laboratory, you only have so many things that you can sample or measure, typically in undergraduate students. So, I, I’m kind of just you know, talk ing all of this out there as a means for people, you, who are interested in improving their creativity or exploring creativity, to not just wait, not just wait. Have a mode of capture, write things down, or maybe jot them into your phone, or voice memos, maybe do open monitoring meditation, maybe sit and force yourself to think in complete sentences with your body still, maybe go for a long run or walk where you’re bored, you’re not listening to anything, and see what comes up. I think everyone does this differently. But, if you’re able to access the state of mind, it can be immens powerful, because great ideas come to you.

在创造力的神经科学研究中，我们了解到一种被称为“开放监控冥想”的冥想练习。与常见的冥想方式不同，通常的冥想是坐着或躺下，闭上眼睛，专注于呼吸，并不断将注意力拉回到额头的第三眼区域。纽约大学Wendy Suzuki教授的研究表明，每天只需10到13分钟的这种练习，就能显著改善记忆力，尤其是工作记忆力，同时还能减轻压力，并带来其他多种好处。而开放监控冥想则是一种不同的冥想形式。在这种冥想中，你同样是坐着或躺下，闭上眼睛，但你的注意力却是关注周围的一切，而不是专注于呼吸。通过这种方式，开放监控冥想被证明可以增强创造力。在这里，“增强创造力”是指在实验室环境中测量到的能力，比如新想法的产生、难题的创造性解决等。尽管这种能力不能直接等同于创作出伟大的音乐作品，但在实验室中，通常通过对本科生的研究来采样或测量这种能力。因此，我将这些信息分享出来，建议对提高或探索创造力感兴趣的人，不要只是等待，而是要积极地行动起来。可以通过写下想法、录入手机或语音备忘录，或者进行开放监控冥想，甚至坐下来，强迫自己以完整的句子思考，并保持身体静止。也可以通过长时间的跑步或散步，在无聊、没有任何干扰的状态下，看看脑中会浮现出什么。我认为每个人都有自己独特的方式去激发创造力，但一旦进入这种心态，可能会非常强大，因为伟大的创意往往在这种状态下出现。

Steven: So, movement was the last one in the dopamine, we were doing this nice dopamine, like, tree of things. Sleep, we did the, um, NSDR, non-sleep deep breast, we did the hydration, exercise, sunlight. If I’m trying to use what I understand now about dopamine to be productive in my relationships, but also in my professional life, is there anything else I need to be, think, we also did food?

史蒂文: 运动是我们关于多巴胺的最后一个话题，我们刚才讨论了许多关于多巴胺的内容，包括睡眠、非睡眠深度休息、补充水分、运动、阳光，以及食物。如果我想要利用我对多巴胺的理解，来提高我的工作效率，以及改善我的人际关系，还有什么是我需要知道的呢？

Andrew: And you can spike your dopamine and epinephrine, nor epinephrine, the so-call catacol amines, with a cold shower or cold plunge. It is a state-shifting tool. That’s really what it is. I like to do sauna and cold at least once a week. Most people don’t have access to a sauna. If you don’t have access to a sauna, no big deal, you could take a hot bath. Just don’t scald yourself. And if you’re a male, saunas now, because of the, um, someone told me that it might fry my sperm.

安德鲁: 你可以通过冷水浴或冷水浸泡来增加多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素等儿茶酚胺的水平。这实际上是一种改变身体状态的工具。我个人喜欢每周至少做一次桑拿和冷疗。大多数人没有桑拿房，如果你也没有，没关系，可以泡个热水澡。只要注意别烫伤自己。如果你是男性，桑拿现在可能会影响精子质量，这是有人告诉我的。

Steven: Oh, yeah, let’s have a very frank discussion about that. It it won’t fry them, but it will definitely, um, deplete the number of viable sperm.

史蒂文: 哦，是的，让我们坦诚地讨论一下这个问题。它不会 fry 它们，但它肯定会减少可存活精子的数量。

Andrew: So, if you are interested in conceiving, just understand that the cycle for genesis of sperm, spermatogenesis, takes place over the course of somewhere between 60 and 90 days, depending on exactly what part of the cycle you’re referring to. Heat is not good for sperm. This is why testicles exist outside the body, why the scrotum can both contract and and sort of relax. And if you go into a sauna or a hot tub, or a hot bath, you will lower the number a viable sperm that you produce, in, over the course of the next 60 to 90 days. So, if you’re trying to conceive, you probably want to avoid those circumstances, unless, of course, you go into a sauna and you take a cold pack, with some insulation please, and you put it in your groin. Um, that’s a straightforward way to maintain coolness of the testicles, and maintain sperm while in the saa. It’s not going to permanently deplete your sperm, but it will dramatically lower sperm, viable sperm count, forward motile sperm. We know this also from people that sit too much, or people that have larger legs. I mean, these studies have actually been done. If you look at the correlation between amount of time seated, especially driving, or on a hot car seat, and sperm count and viability, there’s kind of an inverse relationship there. Does that mean that you should actively cool your testicles? Well, there’s a whole culture of this on the internet. There are products that people can buy. I think they’re what are they called? Snowballs. It’s like a, um, I think they’re called, um, you know, which is like cold, uh, underwear or something. I think that’s getting a little bit, um, excessive, um, however there’s a kind of basic understanding that heat isn’t good, excessive heat isn’t good for sperm. And the whole rationale be behind coal plunges, for sake of testosterone and sperm, probably can only be substantiated by the fact that if you get into a cold bath, or cold shower, and then you warm up, you vasoconstrict. So, you reduce the blood flow to the area, and then you’re going to allow much more blood flow into that area after they warm up again. But, again, heat is bad for the testicles. So, if you’re not trying to conceive, no big deal. Or, you could bring an ice pack in there. I will also say, and this is a very important public service announcement, don’t think that you can use hot tub or hot bath or sauna as contraception. I don’t know that it’s that effective. And, um, I can assure you, without having looked at the data, that, uh, many, uh, child has been conceived, despite the fact that people were in a hot tub or bath, or sauna. Whether or not they were actually conceived in the bathtub, hot tub or sauna, is obviously none of my business.

安德鲁: 所以，如果你有生育的打算，你要明白，精子的生成周期，也就是精子发生，大约是 60 到 90 天，具体的时间取决于你指的是哪个阶段。高温对精子不利，这就是为什么睾丸位于体外，以及阴囊可以收缩和放松的原因。如果你去桑拿房、热水浴缸或洗热水澡，你产生的可存活精子的数量会减少，这会持续 60 到 90 天。所以，如果你正在备孕，你最好避免这些情况，除非你去桑拿房的时候带一个冰袋，记得用隔热材料包裹冰袋，并把它放在你的腹股沟。这是一种保持睾丸凉爽的简单方法，可以在桑拿的时候保护你的精子。它不会永久地减少你的精子数量，但它会显著降低精子的数量、活力以及活动能力。我们还发现，久坐不动的人，以及腿比较粗的人，也更容易出现精子数量减少的情况。事实上，已经有研究证实了这一点。如果你观察久坐的时间，尤其是开车或坐在热的汽车座椅上的时间，与精子数量和活力之间的关系，你会发现它们之间存在着反比关系。这是否意味着你应该主动给你的睾丸降温呢？现在网络上出现了很多关于这方面的讨论，也有一些产品可以帮助你做到这一点，例如一种叫做“雪球”的产品，它是一种降温内裤。我认为这有点过头了，但我们确实需要明白，高温对精子不利，过高的温度对精子更加不利。有些人认为，冷水浴可以提高睾丸激素水平和精子质量，但这可能只是因为，当你进入冷水中，然后再回到温暖的环境中时，你的血管会先收缩，然后扩张，这会增加睾丸部位的血液流动。但高温对睾丸确实有害，所以，如果你没有备孕的打算，这并不是什么大问题。或者，你也可以带一个冰袋去桑拿房。我还要提醒大家，这是一个非常重要的公益广告，不要认为你可以把热水浴缸、热水澡或桑拿作为避孕措施。我不知道它是否有效，但我可以告诉你，即使是在热水浴缸、浴缸或桑拿房中，仍然有很多人怀孕了。他们是否真的在这些地方怀上的，我并不关心。

Steven: The other thing that I, I’m curious about as it relates to dopamine, is pornography. I think pornography has become more readily available now than ever before. Certain, I can go on any social media platform, especially X, and I scroll down for long enough, I will be exposed to pornography, whether I chose to go and seek it out or not.

史蒂文: 另一个与多巴胺有关的话题，我对此也很好奇，那就是色情内容。我认为，色情内容现在比以往任何时候都更容易获取。我可以在任何社交媒体平台上，尤其是 X 平台上，只要向下滚动足够长的时间，我就会看到色情内容，无论我是否想要看它。

Andrew: Yeah. It’ll find you. It’ll find you on pretty much every application.

安德鲁: 是的，它会找到你，它会在几乎所有的应用程序上找到你。

Steven: Um, so, I, especially concerning for young people who are in that, those formative years. But, what is your view on the on pornography, dopamine, and the overall social harm of pornography?

史蒂文: 嗯，我尤其担心那些正处于性格形成期的年轻人。你对色情内容、多巴胺，以及色情内容的总体社会危害有什么看法？

Andrew: Yeah. So, this is a controversial topic, because, obviously, people have different opinions on limiting personal freedom, right? Um, both expression and consumption of of, uh, pornography, right? Um, but moving that aside, and just focusing on things through the lens of biology and the dopamine system, we know that the more stimulating, the more intense an experience, the greater the increase in dopamine. I mean, it’s very clear, based on neuroimaging studies, that you know, more amphetamine causes bigger increases in dopamine than less amphetamine. More cocaine causes bigger increases in dopamine than less cocaine. Caffeine can cause an increase in dopamine, but it’s not nearly the kind of increase, the peak that is, that you observe with amphetamine or cocaine. All right? So, we can’t just say stimulants, and we can’t just say sex, we can’t just say pornography. We have to ask, within the domain of pornography, because we know that sexual activity, and in particular anticipation of sexual activity, okay? This is important. Anticipation of sexual activity raises dopamine levels. Then, the question is, “What is the range of things, and the range of dopamine increase?” Now, while there hasn’t been a very systematic exploration of this, we know that you know, a lot of pornography is extreme, right? It involves more than two people, it can involve all sorts of dynamics that, for some people, are going to be hyper stimulatory. Okay? So, this is very different than, I guess, what people would call “soft pornography”, quote unquote, right? And here, these are subjective labels. So, let’s just pick a hypothetical scenario. A person is viewing a lot of, let’s say, high-intensity, high-dopamine, for them releasing pornography. Okay? For some people that might be pornography of genre A, for other people it might be pornography of genre B, for somebody who never looks at pornography, maybe it’s quite mild, but for them it’s actually quite intense in terms of the amount of dopamine it releases.

安德鲁: 是的，这是一个充满争议的话题，因为人们对限制个人自由持有不同的观点。无论是制作还是观看色情内容，人们对此都有不同的看法。但撇开这些不谈，我们只从生物学和多巴胺系统的角度来讨论这个问题。我们知道，刺激越强烈，体验越 intense，多巴胺的增加就越多。神经影像学研究表明，服用更多的安非他命会导致比服用更少的安非他命释放更多的多巴胺，服用更多的可卡因会导致比服用更少的可卡因释放更多的多巴胺。咖啡因也能导致多巴胺的释放，但它远远不及安非他命或可卡因带来的多巴胺峰值。所以，我们不能简单地将所有兴奋剂、性行为以及色情内容混为一谈。我们需要具体问题具体分析，因为我们知道，性行为，尤其是对性行为的 anticipation，这很重要，对性行为的 anticipation 会提高多巴胺水平。那么，问题来了：“不同类型的性行为，以及它们带来的多巴胺增量的范围是什么？”虽然目前还没有针对这个问题的系统性研究，但我们知道，许多色情内容都非常极端，它们通常涉及不止两个人，以及各种各样的 dynamics，对某些人来说，这些内容会过度刺激他们的神经系统。所以，这与人们所说的“软色情”内容截然不同，当然，这些都是主观的标签。我们假设一种情况，一个人正在观看大量的，例如高强度的、能够释放大量多巴胺的色情内容。对某些人来说，这可能是 A 类色情内容，对另一些人来说，这可能是 B 类色情内容。对于那些从不观看色情内容的人来说，这些内容可能比较温和，但对某些人来说，它们带来的多巴胺释放量却非常大。

Now, what do we know based on dopamine dynamics? Remember, dopamine is the universal currency of motivation, seeking and reward. It’s not like there’s dopamine unique to pornography, versus dopamine unique to food. It’s just a matter of levels and duration. If somebody is consuming, let’s call it very intense, AKA high-dopamine releasing pornography, on a regular basis, what do we know? That peak in dopamine will start to lessen. It’ll be lower and lower, and the trough in dopamine, after they view that pornography, will be deeper trough and longer trough, meaning they are very likely, we don’t know for sure, but very likely to seek out more and more intense experiences to try and just get them back to baseline. Pretty soon, the pornography that, at one time, was very stimulating for them, is no longer stimulating. Now, the concern here is that, and let’s just be frank, we’re not just talking about viewing pornography, we also have to ask ourselves, “What are people doing as they view this pornography?” This is a conversation that should be had, but I have to do it in a way where I’m not imparting moral judgment on any of it. I’m not saying people should masturbate or not masturbate. That’s none of my business, frankly. This is highly individual. It relates to all sorts of things, in terms of values, etc. The point is, however, that we know that orgasm is a dopamine-related event. And post-orgasm, there’s a increase in a molecule called prolactin in the brain. Prolactin actually, in part, sets the refractory period, in which there can’t be further erection in males and orgasm in males, okay? And in females, it really depends. I mean, there’s this whole world, I mean Dr. Rena Malik is, um, far more skilled to discuss this than I am, about you know, different types of orgasms in women, etc., the extent to which multiple orgasms can occur in some individuals, not others. I think the general belief is that it’s possible in most anybody, um, including males and females, right? But, that it’s more typical in females than in males, this sort of thing. Here’s the point. Dopamine and prolactin, generally, are in a kind of a push-pull, or seesaw relationship, where by very stimulatory, high-dopamine releasing activities and pornography and things like that, increased dopamine, but repeated exposure to that, regardless of the activities occurring during that time, lead to big, long troughs in dopamine, such that more stimulation is required just to get any sense of arousal. We also know that prolactin, when that is increased, tends to create a kind of subdued, lack of dopamine, I’m using these terms broadly, um, kind of amotivated, non-motivated state. There are reasons for this biologically, right? After ejaculation, the idea is that animals won’t then, or humans won’t then, copulate again and again and again, at least not for some period of time.

那么，根据我们对多巴胺动态的了解，我们知道什么呢？记住，多巴胺是动机、追求和奖励的通用“货币”。它并不是专门针对色情内容或食物的，它只是与水平和持续时间有关。如果一个人经常观看那些非常 intense 的，也就是能够释放大量多巴胺的色情内容，我们知道会发生什么吗？他的多巴胺峰值会开始下降，并且越来越低，而在观看色情内容后，他的多巴胺水平会下降到更低的水平，并且持续更长的时间，这意味着他很可能会，虽然我们不能确定，但他很可能会去寻求更加 intense 的体验，只是为了让他的多巴胺水平回到基线。很快，那些曾经让他感到兴奋的色情内容，对他来说不再有吸引力了。现在，问题在于，坦白地说，我们不仅仅是在讨论观看色情内容，我们还要问问自己：“人们在观看色情内容的时候，他们在做什么？”这是一个值得讨论的话题，但我必须以一种不带任何道德评判的方式来讨论它。我并不是说人们应该手淫，或者不应该手淫，这与我无关，这是个人选择。它与一个人的价值观以及其他许多因素有关。但重点是，我们知道性高潮是一个与多巴胺有关的事件。性高潮后，大脑中一种叫做泌乳素的分子会增加。泌乳素实际上决定了不应期的长短，在不应期内，男性无法再次勃起或达到性高潮。而对女性来说，情况则比较复杂，雷娜·马利克医生比我更了解这方面的知识，女性的性高潮类型有很多，有些女性可以多次达到性高潮，而有些女性则不能。我认为，大多数人，包括男性和女性，都能够多次达到性高潮，但这种情况在女性中更为常见。重点是，多巴胺和泌乳素通常处于一种此消彼长的关系中。那些能够释放大量多巴胺的刺激性活动，例如观看色情内容，会提高多巴胺水平，但如果反复进行这些活动，无论你在这些活动中做了什么，都会导致多巴胺水平长时间地处于低谷状态，你需要更强烈的刺激才能获得快感。我们也知道，当泌乳素水平升高时，会抑制多巴胺的释放，让人感到情绪低落、缺乏动力。这在生物学上是有原因的，射精后，动物或人类不会立即再次交配，至少在一段时间内不会。

The duration of the refractory period is highly individual. It’s determined by age, by species. There’s the so-called Coolidge effect. Are you familiar with the Coolidge effect?

不应期的持续时间因人而异，它取决于年龄和物种。有一种现象叫做柯立芝效应，你熟悉柯立芝效应吗？

Steven: I’m familiar with post-nut clarity.

史蒂文: 我熟悉贤者时间。

Andrew: Okay.

安德鲁: 好的。

Steven: Um, slightly different.

史蒂文: 嗯，两者略有不同。

Andrew: There’s an anecdote that, um, at least to my understanding is true. At least the Coolidge effect is a known thing in neuroendocrinology, whereby President Calvin Coolidge, reportedly was visiting a chicken farm with his wife. They were touring the farm, and there were a lot of hens, and a lot of chickens generally. And the docent who was showing them around said, “You know, this rooster here,” pointed to a rooster, “copulates more than 300 times per day. It’s remarkable.” And Ms. Coolidge turns to President Coolidge and says, “You hear that? 300 times per day.” She’s obviously quite impressed, and letting him know that. And Coolidge, that is President Coolidge, says, “Ah, but let me ask you a question. Same hen or different hens?” And the docent says, “Different hens.” Now, here’s the phenomenon, the Coolidge effect. It exists in rodents, it exists in chickens, it exists in dogs. People can speculate whether or not it exists in humans. Whereby, if an animal copulates, then the male is in a refractory period lasting anywhere from minutes to hours to days, depending on age, species, etc. During that refractory period, they can’t achieve erection and or ejaculate again. But, if you replace the mate with a novel mate, the refractory period is shortened substantially. Why? The answer is very clear based on actual measurements of brain dopamine. Why? Because, dopamine is also associated with novelty.

安德鲁: 有一个轶事，至少据我所知是真的。柯立芝效应是神经内分泌学中的一个已知现象，据说，卡尔文·柯立芝总统和他的妻子参观了一个养鸡场。他们正在参观农场，那里有很多母鸡，以及其他的鸡。讲解员指着其中一只公鸡说：“你知道吗，这只公鸡每天交配超过 300 次，这太 remarkable 了。”柯立芝夫人转向柯立芝总统说：“你听到了吗？每天 300 次。”她显然对此印象深刻，并且想让柯立芝总统也知道这一点。柯立芝总统问道：“是同一只母鸡，还是不同的母鸡？”讲解员回答说：“是不同的母鸡。”这就是柯立芝效应。它存在于啮齿动物、鸡以及狗身上，人们猜测它是否也存在于人类身上。也就是说，如果一只动物交配后，雄性动物会进入一个不应期，持续时间从几分钟到几小时到几天不等，具体取决于年龄、物种等等。在不应期内，它们无法再次勃起或射精。但如果你用一个新的配偶来代替原来的配偶，不应期就会大大缩短。为什么？通过对大脑多巴胺的实际测量，答案非常清楚。因为多巴胺也与 novelty 有关。

Now, the refractory period probably serves an important evolutionary role, whereby it improves pair bonding, so that post post ejaculation, post-orgasm, okay? Here, I’m interchangeably talking about these for males and females. You know, anytime you hear ejaculation, then people think “males”, etc. Post-orgasm, postcoital bliss, pair bonding, the sharing of pheromones, the sharing of stories, you know, the sharing of affection, right? The sharing of a bed to sleep in, these things are intimately involved in pair bonding. So, I’m not saying that the refractory period is a bad thing. What I’m saying is that dopamine can overcome the refractory period, but the refractory period itself is largely due to an increase in prolactin that suppresses dopamine.

不应期可能在进化过程中扮演着重要的角色，它可以促进伴侣之间的亲密关系。所以在射精后，性高潮后，我这里指的是男性和女性，因为人们通常认为射精是男性专属的词语。性高潮后，性交后的幸福感，伴侣之间的亲密关系，信息素的交流，故事的分享，爱意的表达，以及同床共枕，这些都与伴侣关系的建立密切相关。所以，我并不是说 refractory period 是一件坏事，我只是想说，多巴胺可以缩短 refractory period，而 refractory period 本身很大程度上是由于泌乳素的增加抑制了多巴胺的释放。

So, let’s go back all the way to this question about pornography. What’s the typical scenario? Well, this is not something I choose to think about a lot. You’re talking about some individual in their apartment or home, watching intense, dopamine-stimulating pornography, in which they presumably are aroused, or not aroused, they do or don’t do whatever they choose to do. But, that over time has less and less of an effect, in getting them aroused. And keep in mind that none of this necessarily translates to real world, human, safe interactions between individuals, right? Pornography is very, very different than real world sexual interactions. So, there is a phenomenon that is starting to surface on the internet. What I mean by that, I mean there are a lot of questions posed in podcast forums, in, meaning in the comment section on YouTube, about, “Is pornography dangerous? Is it bad?” etc. I think the thing that we can say for sure, is that any behavior, any substance, that stimulates a lot of dopamine, and that is easily accessed without effort, is potentially problematic. Again, big increases in dopamine that are not preceded by effort, are potentially problematic.

所以，让我们回到关于色情内容的问题。典型的场景是什么？我不想过多地讨论这个问题，你所说的，是某个人在他们的公寓或家里，观看那些 intense 的、刺激多巴胺分泌的色情内容，他们可能会感到兴奋，也可能不会，他们可能会做一些事情，也可能不会，这取决于他们的选择。但随着时间的推移，这些内容对他们的刺激作用会越来越小。我们要记住，这并不一定意味着他们会在现实生活中与他人进行安全的性行为。色情内容与现实生活中的性行为截然不同。现在，网络上出现了一种现象，我指的是，许多人在播客论坛上，或者在 YouTube 的评论区，提出了这样的问题：“观看色情内容有危害吗？它不好吗？”等等。我认为，我们可以肯定地说，任何能够刺激大量多巴胺分泌的行为或物质，如果它不需要任何努力就能轻易获得，那么它就可能是有问题的。也就是说，那些不需要付出任何努力就获得的巨大多巴胺释放，可能是有问题的。

Let’s think about methamphetamine. Huge increase in dopamine. Was the brain designed to release dopamine in response to amphetamine? No. The brain was designed to dole out dopamine, give out dopamine, at a level and duration that is commensurate with the pursuit of some evolutionarily adaptive goal. Methamphetamine bypasses that, gives you a huge surge in dopamine, which is why people feel miserable afterwards. They crave more, just to get back to a lower level of dopamine. Same can be said of gambling, in particular in people that are very prone to gambling addiction. Certainly, can be said for food, for certain people that are very prone to food addiction. Certainly, can be true for anything. But, when it comes to pornography, because of the, as you pointed out, the ready availability of pornography, in particular, let’s just call it “intense pornography”, or that includes a lot of different other stimulatory elements, multiple people, high, you know, a lot of scenarios that, um, can be accessed on the internet, right? Certainly, not things I’m suggesting people go look at. But, that is potentially problematic, because it raises the threshold of the person that’s viewing this, as, “What is arousing?”, to the point where, pretty soon, they need those hyper stimulatory environments, or stimula, in the form of pornography, in order to get aroused. And again, none of that translates into the ability to have conversation with partners, or the ability to you know, have discussion in real world circumstances. And of course, everything we’re talking about could also be translated to real world circumstances, but the data really point to the fact that younger people in particular, are consuming more pornography. So, we’re talking about bigger dopamine increases with less, when I say effort, what I mean is kind of the the more traditional thing was, at least when I was growing up, was you’d go out on a date, or you’d meet somebody and you’ you know, there’s a series of events that would happen, prior to a physical interactions, right? So, this is potentially serious and problematic. There ’s a lot of judgment and understandably so, because people arrive to this sort of discussion with a lot of different backgrounds, in terms of religious backgrounds, and what they think is okay or not okay. What I can tell you for sure, is that I hear from a lot of young males about their challenges with porn addiction. And they want to know how to get over porn addiction. And the answer there is difficult, but very simple, which is abstinence. It’s abstinence. It’s taking a period of abstinence from pornography, maybe forever, maybe reducing the amount. This is where it gets very tricky, very subjective, and it’s almost impossible to kind of have the discussion without getting into some murky territory.

让我们以 methamphetamine 为例，它会让多巴胺大量增加。我们的大脑是为了响应安非他命而释放多巴胺的吗？当然不是。大脑的设计机制是，它会根据我们追求的目标，以相应的水平和持续时间来释放多巴胺。而 methamphetamine 绕过了这种机制，它会让我们突然获得大量的多巴胺，这就是为什么人们在使用 methamphetamine 后会感到痛苦，他们会渴望获得更多，只是为了让他们的多巴胺水平回到一个较低的水平。赌博也是如此，尤其是对于那些容易赌博成瘾的人来说。某些食物也会让人上瘾，对某些人来说，几乎所有事物都可能让人上瘾。但对于色情内容来说，正如你所说，现在获取色情内容非常容易，尤其是那些 intense 的色情内容，或者包含许多其他刺激性元素的色情内容，例如多个人，等等，这些内容都可以在互联网上轻易获取，我当然不是在建议大家去看这些东西。但这种便捷性可能会带来问题，因为它会提高观看者的阈值，让他们不断地追求更加刺激的内容，最终，他们需要那些极度刺激的环境或刺激，例如色情内容，才能获得快感。而且，这并不能帮助他们在现实生活中与伴侣进行正常的交流，或者在现实生活中进行正常的性行为。当然，我们讨论的这些内容也适用于现实世界，但数据表明，年轻人正在观看越来越多的色情内容。所以，我们所说的，是多巴胺的增加更多，而我所说的“努力”，指的是一种更传统的方式，至少在我成长的年代，人们会去约会，或者与某个人相遇，然后会经历一系列的事件，最终才会发生性行为。所以，这是一个潜在的严重问题，这会引发许多人的批评，这也是可以理解的，因为人们来自不同的文化背景，拥有不同的宗教信仰，他们对什么是可以接受的，什么是不可以接受的，有不同的看法。我可以肯定地告诉你，我收到过许多年轻男性的留言，他们表示自己沉迷于色情内容，想要戒掉它。答案很简单，也很困难，那就是戒断。你需要戒掉它，你需要远离色情内容一段时间，也许是永远，也许只是减少观看的频率。这是一个非常敏感的话题，它非常主观，而且我们很难在不触及某些敏感领域的情况下讨论这个问题。

Steven: Yeah.

史蒂文: 是的。

Andrew: Um, but it’s a real issue. And I know it’s a real issue, because I hear from thousands over the last few years, of the podcast, I’ve heard from thousands of males that are like, they were addicted to porn.

安德鲁: 嗯，但这是一个真实存在的问题，我知道这是一个真实存在的问题，因为在过去几年里，我从我的播客听众那里收到了数千条留言，他们都是男性，他们说自己沉迷于色情内容。

Steven: How do they feel? It sounds to me as if they feel very dejected. And some of them, actually, have said they felt very, um, kind of misled. Like, almost like this thing, this natural stimulus for them, was dangled in front of them, and they just gravitated towards it, the same way that any biological organism would gravitate towards something that was triggering its dopamine system. And now, they feel depleted and kind of stuck, and they don’t know what to do. And I don’t necessarily think I’m the person to remedy all of this. I certainly am not. But, I think there needs to be a conversation, much in the same way that Jonathan Haidt has done an amazing job with Anxious Generation, of talking about some of the severe detriment to overuse of social media, and social dynamics, on social media, in particular in young girls. And how we’re now finally realizing that we’re in a mental health crisis, at least in part because of some of that, and we need to pay attention to it. I think there needs to be a discussion around pornography, and some of the challenges it can potentially present, in particular for young males, which is not to say that girls and women aren’t also looking at pornography, because we know they are. The data tell us that, but it does seem to be more of a problem that’s being vocalized by young males. And this, of course, dovetails with the whole discussion about dating behavior, and how that’s changed, and dating apps, and you know how the ready availability of kind of the possibility, or anticipation of a partner is there, but actual dating behavior and real world sexual behavior is reduced. I mean, there’s a lot that needs to be discussed. And, you know, ideally we would have a psych iatrist, a psychologist, and, um, a kind of panel of experts to talk about this. And maybe we do this together, you know, as a service to the world. Because, I hear about this a lot.

史蒂文: 他们感觉如何？在我看来，他们似乎非常沮丧，有些人甚至觉得自己被误导了。就像这种自然的刺激被摆在他们面前，他们被吸引过去了，就像任何生物都会被那些能够刺激他们多巴胺系统的东西吸引一样。现在，他们感到筋疲力尽，深陷泥潭，却不知道如何摆脱困境。我并不认为我能够解决这个问题，我当然没有这个能力。但我认为，我们需要对这个问题进行公开讨论，就像乔纳森·海特在他的《焦虑的一代》一书中所做的那样，他谈到了过度使用社交媒体对年轻女孩造成的严重危害，尤其是在社交方面。我们现在终于意识到，我们正处于一场心理健康危机之中，至少部分原因是由于社交媒体的过度使用，我们需要关注这个问题。我认为，我们也需要对色情内容进行讨论，以及它可能带来的挑战，尤其是对年轻男性来说。这并不是说女性不会观看色情内容，我们知道她们也会，数据表明了这一点，但这个问题似乎在年轻男性中更加普遍。当然，这也与当代年轻人的约会行为有关，以及约会行为的变化，约会应用程序的兴起，你知道，这些应用程序让人们更容易找到伴侣，或者说更容易期待找到伴侣，但现实生活中的约会行为和性行为却减少了。我们需要对这个问题进行深入的探讨。理想情况下，我们可以邀请一位精神病学家、一位心理学家，以及其他一些专家，来共同探讨这个问题。也许我们可以一起做这件事，为社会提供帮助，因为我经常听到人们谈论这个问题。

You, for instance, just by way of contrast, I’m not getting a ton of YouTube comments and emails from people saying, “Hey, you know, I really struggle with, uh, you know, with ribeye steak addiction, or with coffee addiction, or energy drink addiction.” Maybe a little bit with energy drinks, but it’s not crashing lives. It’s not causing people to feel depressed, miserable about themselves. It’s not causing people to have sex ual dysfunction issues and real world interactions. I mean, this is also the concern, right? That young people are getting so attuned to certain dopamine dynamics related to pornography, that they don’t either get aroused, or know how to handle real world, intimate interactions.

例如，我并没有收到很多来自 YouTube 评论和电子邮件的留言，人们说：“嘿，我正在与肋眼牛排成瘾、咖啡成瘾或者能量饮料成瘾作斗争。”也许有些人会对能量饮料上瘾，但这并不会毁掉他们的生活，也不会让他们感到沮丧，或者对自己感到厌恶。它也不会让人们在现实生活中出现性功能障碍。这也是我们担心的问题，对吧？年轻人过于沉迷于与色情内容相关的多巴胺动态，以至于他们在现实生活中无法获得性唤起，或者不知道如何进行亲密的互动。

Steven: Erectile dysfunction, all those kinds of things. For instance, I do, I have to be honest, and this is I just have to be honest, because nothing else is useful. But, I remember the first time I saw a pornographic image, when I was young, and it was just, just a picture of like someone with like a nipple out, and it was the most arousing thing in the world. And obviously, as I’ve aged, I’m now 31, it would take a lot for me to see, for me to feel aroused. I certainly wouldn’t get aroused at seeing like the thing that aroused me when I was 16, or whatever that I found. For example, and it, that, as you were saying, I was thinking, “Gosh, even my arousal cycle, as I’ve gotten, you know, over the last 10 years, has changed.” Because of the availability of pornography, but also, just, sex, as a, in real life, has is become more extreme, as it tries to keep up with the expectations that pornography sets. And then, I thought about a lot what you said about people messaging you, thousands of them, about pornography. And the unfortunate thing about the the abstinence advice, is it leaves them, with many of them, with what alternative? I mean, one would hope, um, depending on you know the circumstances, that they would seek out healthy relationships. And then, this goes to the social elements you described, which is, it’s really difficult, and we, I’ve had multiple people sit here, saying to me, that it’s really the top 10% of men that’re having most of the sex, and this bottom percent, 50% of men, haven’t had sex for a year. I go, “So, you’re, you’re going to, we got to tell a 19-year-old, horny young man that he’s got to abstain from masturbation and pornography? And we might not be able to offer him an alternative for a year?”

史蒂文: 勃起功能障碍，所有类似的事情。比如说，我确实需要坦诚，这确实是我必须坦诚的，因为其他任何事情都没有用。我记得我第一次看到色情图片的时候，那时我还很年轻，那只是一张图片，比如说，有人露出了乳头，而那是世界上最令人兴奋的事情。显然，随着我年龄的增长，现在我已经31岁了，我需要更多的刺激才能感到兴奋。我当然不会因为看到像我16岁时看到的那种东西而感到兴奋。比如说，正如你所说的，我在想，“天哪，过去10年里，即使我的性唤起周期也发生了变化。” 这种变化不仅是因为色情内容的普及，还因为现实生活中的性行为变得更加极端，以跟上色情内容所设定的期望。然后，我想了很多你说的关于人们给你发信息的问题，有成千上万的人在讨论色情内容。而关于禁欲的建议，不幸的是，它让许多人感到困惑，没有什么替代方案可供选择。我的意思是，希望他们能够根据具体情况寻求健康的关系。这也涉及到你所描述的社会因素，这真的很难解决，我有多人告诉我，实际上大部分性行为都发生在前10%的男性之间，而底层50%的男性已经一年没有性生活了。所以，我说，“我们要告诉一个19岁的年轻人，他必须戒掉手淫和色情内容？而我们可能在一年内都无法给他提供替代方案？”

Andrew: Well, I’m not telling anyone, it’s not you, but I’m right, or maybe, um, throttle back, throttle back his behavior. Or think about ways in which things he could do, could lead to healthy romantic and sexual interactions. You know, assuming that you know, he’s of an age and you know the circumstances are are like for that. I think that it’s, you know, as you can tell, as I’m kind of stumbling here, I’m not trying to be careful, I’m trying to be as accurate as possible while also not stating things that I don’t believe are true. Like, you know, “Can pornography be consumed by certain people in a healthy way?” Well, probably, yes. Um, “Do a lot of people get carried away with it, and it starts to become a detriment in their lives? Maybe even an addiction? Maybe even impede other aspects of romantic and workplace behavior?” Yes, we hear this all the time.

安德鲁: 我并不是在说应该禁止任何人观看色情内容，我并不是这个意思，也许，我们可以尝试，嗯，throttle back，throttle back 他的行为，或者引导他去做一些能够帮助他建立健康的恋爱关系以及性关系的事情。当然，这取决于他的年龄以及其他的现实情况。正如你所看到的，我在这里有点犹豫，我并不是想刻意回避这个问题，我只是想尽可能准确地表达我的观点，同时也不想说一些我不相信的事情。例如：“色情内容可以被某些人以健康的方式消费吗？”嗯，也许可以。但“许多人会沉迷于其中，它会对他们的生活造成负面影响吗？甚至会成为一种成瘾行为？甚至会阻碍他们在恋爱关系以及工作中的表现吗？”是的，我们经常听到这样的说法。

Do you know where I am now? I, at, I’m arriving at the position that I think pornography is bad. Because, you know, again, I get lots of DMs and messages. And the more I’ve understood about the brain and the body and the, and dopamine, etc., I just can’t find a net positive, pornography. I can’t find one. Especially as it relates to my relationship with my partner. I’ve been with her for five years now, and I do, I think that me watching pornography, especially if I’m watching it frequently, it’s going to help my performance in the bedroom? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

你知道我现在是怎么想的吗？我越来越觉得，色情内容是有害的。因为，我收到了很多私信和留言，而且我对大脑、身体以及多巴胺等等了解得越多，我就越找不到色情内容的任何好处。我找不到任何好处，尤其是在它与我的伴侣关系方面。我已经和她在一起五年了，我确实，我认为，观看色情内容，尤其是在我经常观看的情况下，并不会提高我在性生活中的表现，绝对不会。

Steven: Yeah. It’s sort of, um, what’s that old saying? “You want to get good at push-ups, do push-ups”, you know?

史蒂文: 是的，就像那句老话说的：“你想擅长俯卧撑，就去做俯卧撑”，你知道吗？

Andrew: Exactly. Probably the best place to get, um, good at intimate conversation and behavior, is in the context of like you said, like a, a great relationship, um, with great communication, that sort of thing.

安德鲁: 没错，要想擅长亲密的对话和行为，最好的方法就是在现实生活中建立一段美好的关系，以及良好的沟通，等等。

I, I do hear about this concern from people a lot. I think that it’s hard to imagine more benefits than kind of concerns or risks, when it comes to pornography, especially for young males. I, too, grew up in an era where, you know, someone would have knowledge of like a Playboy magazine or something. Typically, it was stashed someplace in town, and then people would go visit it, you know, um, it it was like a library, or it was, it was sort of a like an urban library type environment where, you know, people would know, “Oh yeah, behind the”, it was always like a dumpster or something terrible. Be like, “Behind the dumpster behind this building, like there’s a, there’s a stack of Playboys,” and like, then people would go there, right? Um, but, it wasn’t a big part of my childhood. It wasn’t a big part of my life. You know, I never found any pornography in my home, like you know, some kids will stumble across their dad’s magazine. So, I never had that experience. Um, I think that a lot can be said about the requirements and importance of creating healthy dating behavior. And that’s a real world experience, kind of thing. And you know, this is a bigger discussion that deserves a lot of time. Um, I’m not sure we have time for it now, but, you know, we’re growing up in a world where so much of the input arrives through the internet, again, a low-effort, threshold, high-dopamine scenario, right? Some somebody wants to find something on the internet, they just Google for it, they can find it. Um, you know, I think you want particular food that’s extremely tasty, you can order it to your door. Um, this is not, potentially problematic, this is problematic. What it requires, ultimately however I believe, is self-regulatory mechanisms. There is no way that legislature is going to prevent us from having access to things. It’s it’s just not, because people have always found a way. You know I mean, you think about, um, prescription drugs that deliver dopamine without much effort. You know, even if people don’t have a prescription, I think the data are something like 80% of college students have taken prescription stimulants without a prescription. I mean, when I went to college, nobody did that. Nobody. We drank coffee, occasionally someone would take a No-Doz, like a caffeine pill or something, and that was considered extreme. And I still don’t recommend it. Now, you know, there’s all this consumption of pharmacology, there consumption of porn. And I think that successful individuals will learn and understand this relationship about dopamine, especially their own, and they will learn to regulate, and they will be very careful about anything that spikes dopamine really high, without much preceding effort, and that has the capacity for addiction.

我经常听到人们表达这种担忧，我认为，观看色情内容弊大于利，尤其是对年轻男性来说。我也是在一个信息相对闭塞的时代长大的，那时，人们如果想要观看例如《花花公子》杂志这样的内容，通常需要去镇上的某个地方，它可能被藏在某个隐蔽的角落，例如垃圾箱后面。人们会说：“哦，那栋楼后面的垃圾箱后面有一堆《花花公子》杂志。”然后他们就会去那里。但这并不是我童年或青少年时期生活的重要组成部分，我从来没有在家中找到过任何色情内容，我的一些朋友会偶然发现他们父亲收藏的杂志，但我从来没有过这种经历。我认为，我们可以更多地讨论如何建立健康的约会行为，这是一种现实生活中的体验。这是一个需要深入探讨的话题，但我认为我们现在没有时间详细讨论。我们生活在一个信息爆炸的时代，我们通过互联网获取大量的信息，这是一种低成本、高回报的获取多巴胺的方式。如果你想在互联网上找到什么东西，你只需要在谷歌上搜索一下，就能找到它。你甚至可以订购你想要的食物，然后送货上门。这可能是一个问题，我们需要建立自我调节机制。立法者不可能阻止我们获取信息，这根本行不通，因为人们总能找到方法。例如，那些能够带来多巴胺释放的处方药，即使没有处方，人们也能轻易地获得它们。数据显示，大约 80% 的大学生曾经在没有处方的情况下服用过处方兴奋剂。我上大学的时候，没有人这样做。我们只会喝咖啡，偶尔有人会吃一颗 No-Doz，那是一种咖啡因药片，这在当时被认为是很极端的行为，我至今也不推荐这样做。现在，人们过度使用药物和色情内容，我认为，那些成功人士会了解并理解多巴胺，尤其是他们自身的多巴胺系统，他们会学习如何调节自己的多巴胺水平，并且会小心谨慎地对待那些能够带来大量多巴胺释放的事物，那些不需要付出任何努力就能获得的，以及那些容易让人上瘾的东西。

So, I worry far less about the energy drink, the loud music, and the workout, far, far less, maybe not at all, than I do, high-intensity pornography consumed on a regular basis, people taking prescription stimulants who don’t need them. I mean, that’s a recipe for burnout, depression, or worse.

所以，我更不担心能量饮料、喧闹的音乐以及高强度的锻炼，远远更不担心，甚至一点也不担心，比起那些，经常观看高强度色情内容的人，以及那些没有必要服用处方兴奋剂却服用它们的人。我认为，这会导致倦怠、抑郁，或者更糟糕的结果。

Steven: How does this kind of dovetail into having meaning in your life? Because I’m thinking now about those young men, and in that sort of stereotype, they’re maybe sat in their bedroom, alone, probably don’t have a romantic partner, maybe don’t have a lot to be aiming at in their lives. And the group of people that fall into those gambling addiction behaviors, or that pornography behavior, oftentimes, not always, but often, are also lacking in some kind of meaning. Is there like a correlation between the two? Are they associated? Um, and does one help the other? If I, if I go out and start pursuing some great goal in my life, start a company, am I less likely to then be engaging in the dopamine-inducing, pornography addiction?

史蒂文: 这与你的人生意义有什么关系呢？因为我现在正在思考那些年轻男性，他们可能独自一人待在卧室里，没有伴侣，也没有明确的人生目标。那些沉迷于赌博或色情内容的人，他们通常，虽然并不总是这样，但他们经常缺乏某种人生意义。这两者之间是否存在关联？它们是否有关联？一个会帮助另一个吗？如果我开始追求我的人生目标，创办一家公司，我是否就不太可能沉迷于色情内容？

Andrew: So, to answer the second question first, I absolutely believe that when we are in pursuit of healthy goals, meaning goals that are building our life forward, that are going to improve our social relationships, sure, your income, although, you know, it’s risky to just be in pursuit of money, right? There the, another great way to encapsulate the dopamine conversation is, I think it’s in that movie, Wall Street, where the guy says, “What’s your number?” You know, “How much money do you want?” He just says, “More”. Well, that’s dopamine. That’s the essence of dopamine. He just wants more. It’s not really about a number, it’s about the pursuit and acquisition of money. For him, it’s the verb of acquisition. It’s not having that money. And you see this and people that get a million dollars, they want 10, they get 10, they want a 100, they get 100, they want to be a billionaire, right? And I can tell you, knowing many billionaires, that some of them are happy, and some of them are intensely unhappy people. It really depends on how well they’ve managed their relationship to dopamine, because ultimately, it’s not about money, right? Dopamine is just a currency.

安德鲁: 先来回答第二个问题，我完全相信，当我们追求那些能够推动生活向前、改善社交关系的健康目标时，收入也会随之增加。当然，只是单纯追求金钱是有风险的，对吧？还有一个很好的例子来概括关于多巴胺的讨论，我想是在电影《华尔街》里，有人问道：“你想要多少？” 对方只是回答：“更多。” 这就是多巴胺的本质。对他而言，不是关于具体的数字，而是对金钱的追求和获取过程。对于他来说，关键在于“获取”这个动作，而不是拥有金钱。你会发现，有些人得到了一百万，就想要一千万；得到了一千万，又想要一个亿；当他们达到一个亿时，又想成为亿万富翁，对吧？根据我对许多亿万富翁的了解，有些人确实很幸福，但也有一些人非常不快乐。这取决于他们如何处理与多巴胺的关系，因为最终，问题的核心并不是金钱本身，多巴胺只是追求的驱动力。

So, healthy relationships are absolutely fundamental. Here’s what we know. Many, many people are struggling nowadays from what we hear of as the “isolation crisis”, but all it takes is one trusting, reliable relationship to start to shift that in the right direction. I, you know, I am so adamant about this. One of the most powerful things that anyone can do, believe it or not, is to have someone, each morning, that they text, “Good morning,” to. I know this is going to sound trivial, corny, and I’m happy to take the heat on this one. Find a, a friend. And in particular, men who lack friends completely, because there’s a greater percentage of those. Although it’s certainly the case that many young women and women are, um, lonely as well. Find someone who you can communicate with each morning. Just a “Good morning” text. Seriously, this is one of the most powerful things you can do to check in with another member of your species each morning. You don’t have to have conversation, you don’t have to talk about what you’re going to do each day. Knowing that someone else out there in the world cares about us each morning when we wake up, makes us feel incredibly part of the tribe. I do this with, let’s see, one, two, two friends religiously, one from time to time, and a few others kind of kind of fall in and out of the mix. It’s an extremely powerful thing to do. You’re part of a community.

所以，健康的人际关系至关重要。我们知道，现在很多人都在经历“孤独危机”，但你只需要建立一段信任的、可靠的关系，就可以开始改变这种状况。我对此非常坚定，我认为，每个人都能做的最有效的事情之一，信不信由你，就是每天早上给某个人发一条“早上好”的短信。我知道这听起来可能有些 trivial，有些 corny，但我愿意承担任何批评。找一个朋友，尤其是那些完全没有朋友的男性，因为他们更容易感到孤独，当然，也有很多女性感到孤独。找一个你每天早上可以联系的人，只需要发一条简单的“早上好”的短信。说真的，这是你每天早上与你的同类联系的最有效的方式之一。你不需要进行深入的交谈，也不需要谈论你每天的计划。知道这个世界上有人关心着我们，每天早上醒来时，我们都会感到无比的温暖，我们觉得自己是群体中的一员。我每天早上都会给两个朋友发短信，还有一个朋友是偶尔联系，还有一些朋友是断断续续地联系。这是一件非常有意义的事情，因为它会让你觉得自己是社区中的一员。

Steven: Can I ask there, are you, does it matter what you say? Because, in my group chats, we, we tend to tell each other to “F off,” and stuff. And we we roast each other.

史蒂文: 我可以问一下吗？你说什么内容重要吗？因为在我的群聊中，我们经常互相说“滚蛋”，或者互相 roast。

Andrew: That’s fine too. Even better if it’s elaborated with, “How did you sleep? What are you doing today? What’s your plan for the day?” And you reach back.

安德鲁: 那也很好，如果你能再加上一些其他的问候，例如：“你睡得怎么样？你今天做什么？你今天的计划是什么？”那就更好了，然后你会收到对方的回复。

Steven: Is it about showing concern and care for them, and having that reciprocated? Or, is it just about the communication itself? Someone cares enough to think about you first thing in the morning.

史蒂文: 它是关于表达对对方的关心和照顾，并得到回应吗？或者，它仅仅是关于交流本身？有人会在早上醒来后

Andrew: You know, people are really isolated. We move away from our families now, and by the way, these could be family members that you’re communicating with. But, the idea that someone is thinking of us first thing in the morning, even if it’s just like a operational thing, like, “Okay, here we go. Good morning.” The idea that there’s some regularity, some expectation and understanding of a social connection that’s reliable, is immensely powerful. You know, we’ve heard a lot, even from the US Surgeon General, about the isolation crisis and the need for more connection. And certainly, that can and should be in the form of walks with people, coffee, meals, etc. Yes, yes, and yes. But, a great starting place that’s very low bar, is just a “Good morning” exchange, even by text. Phone would be better. Each morning, I do this, as an adult, with two friends. “Good morning, good morning.” If I don’t hear from either one of them by noon, I start to worry a little bit. Not because they’re in any kind of trouble, but it’s just become such a routine part of my day. It allows you to feel part of something bigger than yourself. We are not meant to live our lives in complete isolation, in complete relationship only with our goals. It has to be in relation to other people and our goals. This is the importance of going to the workplace, this is the importance of having a place where you work. If you don’t have a place of work, going to a cafe or a library, seeing faces in the morning. Now, some people don’t want want to see any faces in the morning, they’re not ready to quote, unquote, “face the day”. That’s fine. But, at some point, seeing other people, for some period of time, even just briefly, on the street, saying “Hello,” vitally important. You know, we evolved, we we are a primate species. We are Old World primates. We evolved to look other people in the eye, and for them to look back at us, even if just to say “Hi” as they walk their dog. Now, some people don’t have anyone. It’s really sad. But, some people don’t have anyone to even exchange this basic text with. In that case, I highly recommend that you adopt an animal. A dog can accomplish a tremendous amount, not everything, but a tremendous amount, in terms of making us feel connected. We are then a caretaker. They’re taking care of us. There’s empathy there. There’s all sorts of wonderful things. If you can’t have that, you can get a fish, seriously, some being, a plant, some living being that we’re responsible for, and that relies on us, and to some extent that we rely on as well, is so crucial. We have huge amounts of neural real estate devoted to this, humans especially. You know, most of the brain is designed for visual processing, for movement, and then you start to look at, “Okay, like, what’s kind of the third element?” Well, it’s language and social connection. So, find someone that you can exchange a morning text with on a consistent basis, ideally every day.

安德鲁: 你知道，在现代社会，人们变得越来越孤立。我们与家人分离，搬到不同的地方，顺便提一下，这些家人可能是你在交流的人。但如果有一个人在早上第一时间想到我们，即使这只是一个简单的问候，比如“早上好”，这种例行的社交联系是非常强大的。我们已经听说了很多关于孤立危机的报道，甚至美国外科医生也强调了增加社会联系的必要性。当然，这种联系可以通过与他人一起散步、喝咖啡或吃饭来实现。是的，这些都很重要。但一个简单的“早上好”短信也是一个很好的起点。如果能打电话就更好了。每天早上，我都会和两位朋友互道“早上好”。如果到中午还没收到他们的消息，我会有点担心，不是因为他们遇到了什么问题，而是因为这已经成为我日常生活的一部分。这样的例行联系让我们感到自己是某个更大整体的一部分。我们不应完全孤立地生活，只关注自己的目标。生活应该与他人以及我们的目标联系在一起。这也是为什么工作场所的重要性，如果没有工作场所，去咖啡馆或图书馆，早上见到其他人脸是很重要的。虽然有些人可能不喜欢在早上见到人，他们还没准备好“面对一天”，但在某个时候，看到其他人，甚至在街上简短地说声“你好”，都是至关重要的。我们是灵长类动物，进化使我们能够直视他人，并希望得到回应，即使这只是对方在遛狗时的一句“嗨”。然而，有些人真的没有任何可以交流的人，这确实很令人难过。在这种情况下，我强烈建议你养一只宠物。一只狗在让我们感到联系方面可以起到很大的作用，虽然无法代替一切，但能让我们感到自己是在照顾它们，而它们也在照顾我们。这种相互依赖的关系非常重要。如果你不能养狗，养一条鱼也行，或者一株植物，任何让我们感到责任并依赖的生命体，都是至关重要的。我们的大脑中有大量的神经元专门用于这些，尤其是人类。大脑的大部分是用于视觉处理和运动的，但紧随其后的是语言和社会联系。所以，找到一个你能每天早上定期互发短信的人，真的很重要。

Steven: Has this come naturally to you? Because you don’t strike me as an individual that this comes naturally to, I’m not, also, okay, you mean I’m I’m a bit of a a loner? Is that the sense?

史蒂文: 这对你来说是自然而然的吗？因为我感觉你并不像是那种会主动与他人联系的人，你是说，我，我有点像是一个独来独往的人吗？是这样的吗？

Andrew: I, a loner. I I would be perfectly okay. And there was a year of my life where I feel like I didn’t interact with anyone, when I was building my first business in a small room in a rough area of the UK. But, I’m someone who, if left to my own devices, probably wouldn’t interact with anybody.

安德鲁: 我，我是一个独来独往的人，我可以一个人生活。我曾经有一年的时间，几乎没有和任何人互动，那是我在英国一个比较混乱的地区，在一个小房间里创办我的

Steven: And, but you strike me as the same. I have my dog as well. But, yeah, a bit. I don’t have a dog right now. I’m getting another one soon. I must say I can spend long periods of time alone, but I crave social connection. And more so as I get older.

史蒂文: 你的情况和我一样。我以前也养过狗，但我现在没有养狗，我很快就会再养一只。我必须承认，我可以长时间独处，但我渴望社交，而且随着年龄的增长，这种渴望越来越强烈。

Andrew: You know, I think, um, most of the challenges in my life have been around trying to resolve the need to get work done, that I’m really passionate about, and the, let’s just call it what it is, the isolation required for that, the discipline, the organization that’s required for that, and the desire to to be socially connected. Now, I’ve been very fortunate to have a lot of really close friends, and I’m in communication with them on a regular basis. And I’ve been closer to some than others. There’s some that I’m really close with. I talk to all the time every day. I’m close with my sister. I talk to my parents a fair amount, you know? More than some, less than others, depends on the family structure. Um, and a few friends are just absolutely central to my life and well-being.

安德鲁: 你知道，我人生中的大部分挑战都来自于如何平衡我对工作的热情，以及完成工作所需的 isolated 环境，为此需要的自律和组织能力，以及我想要与他人建立社交联系的愿望。我很幸运，我有很多亲密的朋友，我经常与他们联系。我与其中一些人的关系更加亲密，我每天都会和他们聊天。我也与我的妹妹很亲近，我经常和我的父母聊天，我的联系频率比有些人高，比有些人低，这取决于家庭结构。但有几个朋友绝对是我生命中最重要的人，他们对我的幸福至关重要。

I think when you have a romantic partner that you live with, or that you’re in communication with, then it becomes more frequent. But, even there, you know, I think it’s important to still maintain healthy friendships. And of course, people differ on this spectrum. I don’t think you need a lot of friends. I think you need one really reliable, good friend, or more, depending on, you know, what your needs are. And I think that as I’ve gotten older, I realized that you know, the the best things in life, success in particular, but also hard times, are best shared with other people. And the best way to make friends really, is twofold. You know, a friend of mine once said this. He said, “You know, people with interests are interesting.” So, people, so, if you’re interested in things, you know, going and interacting with those things, even if they’re within books, etc., have interests, genuine interests. Don’t just learn things for learning sake, but just have interests. And then, the other, is that, if you are not the sort of person for whom like friendships are just pouring over you, and people want your time, then be of service.

我认为，当你拥有一个同居的伴侣，或者是你经常联系的伴侣时，你的社交互动会更加频繁。但即使是这样，我认为，保持健康的友谊仍然很重要。当然，每个人的社交需求都不同，我认为你不需要很多朋友，你只需要一个真正可靠的好朋友，或者更多，这取决于你的个人需求。随着年龄的增长，我意识到，生活中最好的事情，尤其是成功，以及那些艰难的时刻，最好与他人分享。结交朋友的最佳方式有两点：我的一个朋友曾经说过：“有兴趣的人是有趣的。”所以，如果你对某些事物感兴趣，就应该积极地去探索它们，即使它们只是书本上的知识。要培养真正的兴趣爱好，而不仅仅是为了学习而学习。其次，如果你不是那种朋友很多，并且总是被人需要的人，那么就主动去帮助他人。

You know, this notion of, “Be the person who sends the ‘Good morning’ text.” Now, if somebody never reciprocates, well then, okay, maybe you look elsewhere and and send your your energy elsewhere. But, be the person who checks up on somebody, on a family member or friend on a regular basis. Be the person of service, and um, you can volunteer, you can help people in any number of ways. I mean, the great thing about a dog, or just taking walks, is that you, you’ll find, if you do it continually, in the same neighborhood, over and over, you start to run into the same people. And it becomes a “Hello”, maybe they become a friend, maybe it’s just the familiarity, maybe it’s the barista that you say “Hello” to each morning. You know, these things are really what I think we evolved, in fact I know we evolved, to do. And they trigger activation of these circuits that are so fundamental to our sense of of well-being and safety. It it largely has to do with with our ability to predict the future. I mean, right now, we’re in a political landscape and a you know, just a world landscape that’s so uncertain and so divisive. You know, just having some things that are just good, let’s just call it what it is, goodness. Just good-natured humans being good-natured, you know, being kind to one another. And not in any kind of manipulative way, just really being kind to one another. And then, upon that, one can layer, you know, a couple extra hours of work where you’re highly motiv at, than getting back out, take your you know your lunch outside, and maybe you don’t see anybody. You know, people who are isolated, probably have to do more work to interact with other people. But, there are ways to do this. And you know, for people that struggle with addictions, like the pornography addictions, or alcohol, drug addictions, and other like behavioral addictions, I mean, there are zero-cost programs, essentially, in every city around the world that people can access. Some of the social connection and support for those that, again, are completely zero cost. For people that, um, are interested in exercise, you know there’s usually like running groups. There’s usually a threshold one has to get over. I’m not one to join a running group, or work out with other people. This is not my kind of thing, but I do require, I found, um, I need healthy social connection.

你知道，“成为那个主动发送‘早上好’短信的人”。如果对方没有回复你，那也没关系，你可以寻找其他人，将你的精力放在其他人身上。但你要做一个关心他人的人，定期关心你的家人或朋友，做一个乐于助人的人。你可以做志愿者，你可以用各种方式帮助他人。养一只狗，或者只是去散步，最棒的地方在于，如果你坚持这样做，在同一个社区里，你会遇到相同的人，你们会互相问候，也许他们会成为你的朋友，也许你们只是互相熟悉，也许只是你每天早上都会和那位咖啡师打招呼。我认为，这些都是我们人类进化过程中形成的本能，它们会激活我们大脑中那些与幸福感和安全感相关的回路。这在很大程度上与我们预测未来的能力有关。我们现在生活在一个充满不确定性和分裂的政治环境和世界环境中，我们需要一些美好的东西，让我们称之为善良，我们需要善良的人，善良地对待彼此，而不是以任何 manipulative 的方式，而是真诚地对待彼此。在此基础上，你可以额外工作几个小时，然后走出家门，在户外吃午饭，也许你不会遇到任何人。那些孤立的人，可能需要付出更多的努力才能与他人建立联系，但这并非不可能。对于那些与成瘾作斗争的人，例如色情内容成瘾、酒精或药物成瘾，以及其他行为成瘾，每个城市都有免费的互助小组，他们可以获得来自他人的支持和帮助，而且这些都是免费的。对于那些喜欢运动的人来说，他们可以加入跑步小组。当然，加入这些组织需要克服一些心理障碍。我并不是那种喜欢参加跑步小组，或者与他人一起锻炼的人，但这不适合我。我发现，我需要健康的社交联系。

Steven: When did you figure that out? Because there was an age, I can tell exactly when I figured it out. So, I know there must be one for you where you kind of figure it out.

史蒂文: 你是什么时候意识到这一点的？因为我清楚地记得我是什么时候意识到这一点的，所以我知道你肯定也有一个类似的时刻。

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a big pack of boys at the end of my street, growing up, uh, we all played together. Then, skateboarding in that world, I was just, really, surrounded by people all the time. When I got serious about school and research, there were a lot of days and nights I was alone, and at that time I’d listen to books, or I’d listen to music. Um, I still had friends, but I was less social. And I think it wasn’t really until my mid-30s that that I started to realize like, “Whoa, like, okay, even though, you know, I had a girlfriend, I was, I was lonely.” And I was starting to accumulate some unhealthy patterns of behavior, where I was just seeking connection in unhealthy ways.

安德鲁: 是的，我是在我家街区尽头的一大群男孩中长大的，我们从小一起玩耍。然后，我开始玩滑板，我总是和很多人在一起。当我开始认真学习和做研究的时候，我有很多时间都是独处，我会听书，或者听音乐。我仍然有朋友，但我很少参加社交活动。直到我 35 岁左右的时候，我才意识到：“哇，即使我有一个女朋友，我仍然感到很孤独。”我开始养成一些不健康的行為模式，我试图用不健康的方式来寻求情感连接。

And as I’ve built up my friendship group, and that also, of course, requires being a good friend. And I suppose there are a few people out there that probably say that I’m an unreliable friend. But, I think if you were to pull my 10 or 15 closest friends, they’ll tell you I’m the guy that checks in. Now, I probably upset a few people because I don’t check in on everybody. But, it’s true. I’ve got a list, I actually have a list, it’s not in this notebook, of about 10 or 15 people. It’s a list of 30 people total, that those are my core people, people. And I make it a point, it’s not because I’m regimented, or “protocoling” any of this, I make it a point to check in on that person. “I haven’t called that person in a little while,” but then there’s that core group of people that I make sure to check in with every day, at least every week. And that, like, without whom, like I don’t really want to live. It’s not that I want to die, but life’s just so much better with those people in my life.

随着我逐渐建立起我的朋友圈，当然，这也需要我成为一个好朋友。我猜想，有些人可能会认为我是一个不可靠的朋友，但如果你询问我 10 到 15 个最亲密的朋友，他们会告诉你，我是一个非常关心朋友的人。我可能会让一些人感到失望，因为我没有关心到所有人，但这是事实。我有一个清单，它不在这个笔记本里，上面记录了大约 10 到 15 个人的名字，总共 30 个人，他们是我最核心的朋友。我会定期联系他们，这不是因为我给自己制定了严格的计划，或者是在“protocoling”我的友谊，我只是想要关心他们。“我已经有一段时间没有和他联系了。”但我会确保每天，至少每周，都与我的核心朋友们联系。没有他们，我的生活将会黯然失色，并不是说我想死，而是说，有他们在我的生活中，我的生活会更加美好。

Steven: But, how does someone make that list? That 15 names you have?

史蒂文: 但你是如何确定这份清单的呢？你名单上的那 15 个人？

Andrew: It’s all feel. It’s the people that I accept, and that accept accept me. You know, my patterns of communication are a little weird. It’s gotten me into trouble in life for sure. I’ll be, you know, a good friend of mine once said, you know, that I’m like the little, um, orbiting, uh, flying robot in Star Wars. I’m like there, and then I’m gone. And people that know me, and by the way he’s a very close friend, know that I’m gone, but I, but I’m back. And so, I tend to give things my full attention. I’m like 10 out of 10 attention, and then I need my space to reset. And that hasn’t always been healthy, but I’ve done my best to try and get better at it over time. And people that make that list, are either the same way, a few a few of them are definitely the same way. Where, I’m like, “I haven’t heard from them in a while, but then when I sit down with them, or we have a phone call,” it’s like, they’re really there. In fact, some of these people will say, “Let’s talk tomorrow, let’s talk tomorrow,” and it never happens. And I know they’re not flaky, I know that they’re doing other things, and then when they’re ready, and we get on a call, man, it’s the richest interaction I’ve ever had. It’s so deep, and so rich. I’m like, I get so much out of a 10-minute conversation. It’s like, yes, we’re an hour-long conversation. And then, there are friends that I’ll hang out with for a week, I’ll go visit, um, go for a hike with. But, it’s the richness of the interaction that matters for me, not the frequency, not the frequency.

安德鲁: 这完全取决于感觉，是那些我接受的人，以及那些接受我的人。我的交流方式有点奇怪，这给我带来了一些麻烦。我的一位好友曾经说过，我就像《星球大战》中的那个小型的飞行机器人，我来了，然后我又走了。那些了解我的人，顺便说一句，他也是我的好友，他们知道，我虽然离开了，但我还会回来。我倾向于全身心地投入到某件事情中，我会付出 100% 的注意力，然后我需要一些空间来调整自己。这并不总是有益的，但我一直在努力改善这一点。那些出现在我名单上的人，他们要么也是这样的人，他们中的一些人，肯定是这样的人。我可能很长时间没有和他们联系了，但当我与他们坐下来聊天，或者打电话时，他们会让我感觉非常亲近。事实上，这些人中的一些人会说：“我们明天再聊，我们明天再聊。”但这件事永远不会发生。我知道他们并不是在敷衍我，我知道他们有其他的事情要做，当他们准备好了，我们再次联系的时候，那将是我经历过的最丰富的互动。它如此深刻，如此充实，我从 10 分钟的谈话中就能获得很多东西，就像我们进行了一次长达一小时的谈话。我还有一些朋友，我会和他们一起出去玩一周，我会去拜访他们，或者和他们一起去远足。但对我来说，重要的是交流的质量，而不是频率，不是频率。

Steven: That’s right. And then, for me, I think people who consider me a good friend, are people who understand the intensity that I bring to things, and you know, the love and care that I really have have for them, and that if they need me, I’m there. Like, I will tell you, I’ve had some hard times, some recently. And it was amazing. I had people descending on my home, to be with me. You, I’ll tear up if I talk about it. Some of them are names people are familiar with, in the in the podcast space. And I was like, “Oh, my goodness, like, I, like I’ve not had that.” You know, I will get, uh, emotional, you know. They came to my home, and they sat with me, and, yeah, they picked me up, and they reminded me who I am. And, um, you know, I, I’ve just such immense gratitude for that. Um, you know, I’m a 49-y old man, um, I’ve done some things correctly, I’ve done some things I regret, um, I’ve strived to be the best person I could be at the time, doing the best I had with what I had. And they know that, and I know they know that. Not just because they told me, but like you can feel it. And I’ve been blessed enough, not just to know these people, but also that when they’ve been in need, that I’ve had the opportunity to go to them, you know? And I had to do that several times recently. Things that had nothing to do with me. You just, sometimes people will outright ask for help, sometimes they’ll say they’re in danger, sometimes you just sense it. And it’s like, “That’s it. I’m driving”, you know, um, getting in the car. And um, and I’ve learned the best thing, the way you build that kind of friendship and network, is by showing up when that hard stuff isn’t happening, and you try and give your full attention. And sometimes that requires putting away the phone. And sometimes, it means you’re both on your phones, and you’re just hanging out, and you’re watching a game or, you know, it doesn’t mean being like, forcing yourself to be somebody you’re not, but it means paying attention. And, um, yeah. And giving, giving a significant portion of our elves to, try and really like be there for people. Because, ultimately, I think that’s what we want in social interactions, you know? We want listening, we want shared experience, we want all that stuff. And that stuff’s great, but ultimately, it’s like when you ask, “Who makes the list?” It’s like, I’m thinking of these people now, it’s like, I feel like they’re always with me, you know? And, um, I wouldn’t trade any amount of money, any amount of anything for that. And I think that like a really good life includes some of that.

史蒂文: 没错，对我来说，那些认为我是一个好朋友的人，是那些了解我的热情，以及我真诚地关心和爱护他们的人，他们知道，如果他们需要我，我会随时出现。我曾经经历过一些艰难的时刻，包括最近发生的一些事情。我的朋友们来到我家，陪伴我，我几乎要哭了。他们中有些人是播客领域的知名人士，我当时想：“我从未感受过如此温暖的友情。”我会变得很情绪化，你知道，他们来到我家，陪伴我，帮助我度过了难关，他们提醒我，我是谁。我非常感谢他们，我今年 49 岁了，我做过一些正确的事情，也做过一些让我后悔的事情，但我始终在努力成为一个更好的人，尽我所能做到最好。他们知道这一点，我也知道他们知道这一点，不仅仅是因为他们告诉过我，而是因为我能感受到。我很幸运，不仅能够认识这些人，而且当他们遇到困难的时候，我也能够帮助他们。我最近帮助过他们几次，有些事情与我无关，但当你看到朋友需要帮助的时候，有时他们会直接向你求助，有时他们会说他们遇到了危险，有时你只是凭直觉就能感受到。然后你就会毫不犹豫地开车去帮助他们。我意识到，建立牢固的友谊和人脉的最佳方式，就是在朋友遇到困难的时候出现，并全心全意地帮助他们。有时，这意味着你需要放下手机，专心与他们交谈；有时，这意味着你们可以各自玩手机，只是待在一起，看一场比赛，等等。这并不意味着你要强迫自己成为一个与你本性不符的人，而是意味着你要关注你的朋友，给予他们你真诚的关心和爱护。因为我认为，这就是我们在社交互动中想要获得的东西，我们想要倾听，我们想要分享经验，我们想要所有的这些东西。这些东西很棒，但最终，当你问：“谁会进入我的核心朋友圈名单？”我想到这些人，我感觉他们一直都在我身边，我不会用任何东西来交换这份友谊。我认为，真正美好的生活，一定包含着友谊。

Andrew: Like, like you and me both though. I I, it didn’t come naturally to me. My parents, although they never separated, I was willing them to. Because, I was, they they were just, they hate, hate’s a strong word, it appeared that they hated each other. You know, watching my mother scream at my my father for seven hours a day every, my mother’s Nigerian, my dad’s English, was it, was a traumatic experience. And the thing it left me with, is this clear notion, which I left the household with at 18, was that a relationship is prison. And I was, it was so hardwired into me, cuz I thought my father was in prison. So, every time someone was interested in me, growing up, I would self-reject. I would reject them. So, I’d pursue them, and then when they turned to me, and said, “Okay, let’s be in a relationship”, I would persuade them out of it. I would tell them why this was a terrible idea. Because, I was getting the feeling that I, vicariously, learned through my father, I was, I’m about to basically lock myself in a prison where this person’s going to sc going to be able to control me in my freedom. So, I rejected relationships up until about 27 years old. So, you know. And then even that relationship wasn’t a straight line. Because, two years in, she turns around and say she doesn’t like having sex with me. Turns out she’s got her own traumas around sex. So, we have a year where she’s on the other side of the planet. I didn’t have the tools, as you say, to understand what, how to navigate such a conversation. So, for me, I’m emasculated, I’m going, “Maybe there’s something wrong with me, she doesn’t want to have sex with me, dump her.” And then, but she was the right person. And what, the TL;DR of that story is, a year later, I end up flying to the other side of the world, apologizing to this person for my lack of tools, my lack of communications skills. Cuz it was the right person at the wrong time. And we did the work, and that was long, and it was hard. And it’s still hard, but it’s in an amazing place at the moment.

安德鲁: 我们都一样，这对我来说也并非易事。我的父母虽然没有分开，但我曾经希望他们分开，因为，他们，他们只是，他们互相憎恨，憎恨是一个很强烈的词语，但他们似乎真的互相憎恨。我每天都看着我的母亲对我父亲大喊大叫，持续七个小时，我的母亲来自尼日利亚，我的父亲来自英国，那是一段非常痛苦的经历。这段经历让我形成了一个根深蒂固的观念，我在 18 岁离开家的时候，仍然相信这一点，那就是亲密关系就像一座监狱。我之所以会这样想，是因为我以为我的父亲生活在一座“监狱”里。所以，在我成长的过程中，每当有人对我表示好感时，我都会拒绝他们，我会追求他们，但当他们对我说：“好吧，让我们在一起吧”的时候，我会说服他们放弃，我会告诉他们，为什么恋爱是一个糟糕的主意。因为，我从我父亲的经历中体会到，我即将把自己锁进一座“监狱”，我的伴侣将会控制我的自由。所以，我一直拒绝恋爱，直到 27 岁左右。但即使是那段恋爱关系也充满了波折，因为两年后，她对我说，她不喜欢和我发生性关系。结果发现，她对性存在一些心理阴影，所以，我们分开了一年，她去了世界的另一端。我没有足够的技巧，正如你所说，我不知道如何处理这样的问题。我感到很挫败，我想：“也许我有什么问题，她不想和我发生性关系，我要和她分手。”但她对我来说是正确的人，故事的结局是，一年后，我飞到了世界的另一端，向她道歉，因为我缺乏处理问题的能力，也缺乏沟通技巧。因为，她是正确的人，但我们相遇的时间不对。我们都付出了很多努力，那是一段漫长而艰难的经历，现在仍然很艰难，但我们现在的关系很好。

Andrew: Oh, you’re back together?

安德鲁: 哦，你们复合了？

Steven: Yeah. We live together. She’s flown from, back from Bali two years ago, we live together. The best, the right person for me, but it’s hard work.

史蒂文: 是的，我们住在一起，她两年前从巴厘岛回来了，我们现在住在一起。她是我的真命天女，但经营一段亲密关系确实很辛苦。

Andrew: Good for you. You like hard work. It’s a wonderful story. I mean, it’s a happy story, regardless of ultimately how it turns out. Because, one can sense like the real, uh, central cord of love there. And, um, and the the desire to make it work. I mean, it’s it’s so interesting, this notion of “make it work.” You know, we, again, just as being a functional adult means saying, “Yep, you’re right about this, but no, I’m going to stand my ground.” In relationships, people say, “Relationships take work.” Of course they do. And then the question is, “How much work relative to how much ease?” And it’s highly individual, and there’s no handbook for this, there’s no handbook for it, and and so.

安德鲁: 恭喜你，你喜欢 hard work。这是一个很棒的故事，一个快乐的故事，无论它最终会如何发展，因为我能感受到你们之间真挚的爱，以及你们想要让这段关系 work 的决心。说到“让它 work”，这真的很有趣，我们之前说过，作为一个成熟的成年人，意味着你要能够说：“是的，你在这件事上是对的，但我会坚持我的立场。”人们总是说：“恋爱关系需要经营。”当然，它们确实需要经营，问题是：“我们需要付出多少努力，才能让这段关系变得轻松愉快？”这因人而异，没有关于这方面的指导手册，没有任何指南。

And the reward on offer, cuz I was convinced that she was the most amazing person I’d ever met, it just so happened that she turns around to me one day, and says she doesn’t like having sex with me.

而我之所以愿意付出这么多，是因为我确信她是我遇到过的最棒的人，但有一天，她突然对我说，她不喜欢和我发生性关系。

Andrew: Yeah, that’s rough. That’s rough, right? Especially for a young, you have no concept of what that might be. You think maybe you’re bad in bed or something.

安德鲁: 这很 rough，那很 rough，对吧？尤其对一个年轻人来说，你根本无法理解这意味着什么，你可能会觉得自己在性方面表现不好，或者有什么问题。

Steven: But, as she did the work on herself, and I did the work on myself, she unlocked a bunch of traumas around sex, and how she’d been treated with sex as she grew up, what she, she resolved, and she’s been very public about this, this is why I can share it. And I did a bunch of work on myself, and how to deal with how I communicate when someone says, brings me such a thing. And after a year of her working on that, and a year of me working on myself, we found ourselves in a place where, it turns out, she loves sex now. She’s arguably, even more sexual than I am in many respects. Completely different individual. But, it just require, and I, I have to give the ending there, because people are going to be wondering, but it required a lot of work on me and myself, and where I’ve come from, and the situation of my my family, and her and the experience she’s been through. And we found ourselves together now, in a great place place, when that still requires work, but in a great place. So, you know, everyone’s, everyone’s struggling with some, you know. My family’s not great. We, we’re not that close. I’m not that close to certain members of my family. I’ve struggled with romantic relationships, made all the mistakes. I struggle with, with platonic relationships with my friends. I’m not the guy that’s able to check in. I like being alone, you know? It is what it is. We’re all you know, uniquely challenged in some way.

史蒂文: 但是，随着她努力改变自己，我也努力改变自己，她解开了许多关于性的心理创伤，以及她在成长过程中是如何看待性的，她解决了这些问题，并且她对此非常坦诚，这就是为什么我可以分享她的故事。我也努力改变自己，学习如何与他人沟通，尤其是当他们说出那些让我感到难堪的话时。经过一年的努力，我们发现，她现在很喜欢性，甚至在某些方面比我更加开放，她变成了一个完全不同的人。但我必须在这里先暂停一下，因为人们可能会想知道故事的结局，但它确实需要我们付出很多努力，去了解彼此的过去，以及我们各自的家庭环境，以及她所经历的一切。现在，我们重新走到了一起，我们的关系很好，虽然我们仍然需要努力经营这段关系，但它确实很好。所以，你知道，每个人都会遇到一些挑战，我的家庭关系并不好，我们之间并不亲密，我和我的一些家人关系并不亲密。我在恋爱关系中也遇到过很多困难，我犯过所有的错误。我也很难与我的朋友们维持柏拉图式的关系，我并不是那种会主动关心朋友的人，我喜欢独处。这就是现实，我们每个人都面临着独特的挑战。

So, I’ve got a great amount of empathy for what you shared, and I, I really appreciate you for sharing it, because there’s so many people that can relate, in various ways. I’m one of them. Um, and I think it’s important because we don’t talk about it enough.

所以我非常理解你的感受，我真的很感谢你分享你的经历，因为很多人都会有类似的感受，我就是其中之一。我认为，公开讨论这些话题很重要，因为我们谈论得还不够多。

Andrew: Well, thank you for sharing your experience, and for giving me the opportunity to share a bit. Um, you know, the conversation started around you know, hard circumstances, and you know, it’s about taking stock of where we trust ourselves, um, to make the right decisions, where we need work. And yeah, relationships are hard, but I do think that, well, certainly now I’m feeling, um, more ease, you know, more seamlessness with them. Certainly with friendships, as I mentioned. You know, we all have these areas of proficiency where we are you know, where we find that things are kind of easier, or even easy, for us. They just kind of happen, direct relationship between effort and outcome, right? And then, these other areas where we feel like we’re rolling a boulder uphill, keeps coming back and crushing us, and we keep doing it. And I think that you know, there’s no simple or universal answer. Um, but you know, I think the rewards that come from a relationship where there’s been a lot of hard work, and things get resolved, even in one little domain, yeah, are so tremendous, you know? I think that’s really, um, related to this sense that like, when things end, it’s just so, feels so devastating. I, I really believe that things can be talked through, I really do. I think that, um, you know, resent and anger, um, they don’t serve anyone. They really don’t. And people are probably hearing this and say, “Well, that’s a self-serving narrative,” but really, I’m talking about it in in myself too. I I don’t carry any resent, and any any anger, you know? I sometimes wish people had made different choices. But, ultimately, like, we can’t control what anyone else is going to do or say or think. And that’s terrifying, right? People can really hurt us, right? They can really hurt us, and we would love to create a world in which we’re completely safe. But, I think that a lot of the work I’ve been doing lately, is really around, um, you know, kind of like touching back into maybe a a younger version of myself that, um, wasn’t so walled up, wasn’t, um, so focused on what’s going to happen in two or three iterations of something. Just really being as present as possible, really focusing, as it’s probably become clear today a few times, I’m like, the amazing gifts that I have in my life right now. That pursuing goals is great, and wanting things is great. Certainly, there are things I want and want to build, mostly in the domain of relationships and family, but but also, just like, really savoring, like, having one’s health, or having, um, the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation like this, like like, what a what an extraordinary life we each have, if we really pay attention to some of these gifts.

安德鲁: 嗯，谢谢你分享你的经历，也谢谢你给我机会分享我的故事。我们的谈话从那些艰难的经历开始，你知道，它是关于审视我们自身，看看哪些方面是我们值得信赖的，哪些方面是我们需要改进的。是的，经营人际关系很困难，但我认为，我现在感觉更加轻松了，与他们相处更加融洽了，尤其是与朋友们的关系。我们每个人都有自己擅长的领域，有些事情对我们来说很容易，或者说很容易就能做好，它们自然而然地就会发生，努力和结果之间存在着直接的联系。而有些事情则非常困难，就像我们一直在推一块巨石上山，它不断地滚下来，压在我们身上，但我们仍然坚持这样做。我认为，这并没有一个简单或通用的答案，但我相信，那些经历过许多磨难，最终解决问题的关系，即使只是在很小的范围内，也会带来巨大的回报。我认为，这与我们对结束的恐惧有关，当一段关系结束时，我们会感到非常痛苦。但我相信，任何问题都可以通过沟通来解决，我真诚地相信这一点。我认为，怨恨和愤怒对任何人都没有帮助，它们真的没有帮助。人们可能会听到这句话，然后说：“这是一种自私的说法。”但我也是这样对自己说的，我没有怀有任何怨恨或愤怒，你知道吗？我有时也会希望人们做出不同的选择，但最终，我们无法控制任何人，我们无法控制他们的行为、言语以及想法。这很可怕，对吧？人们会伤害我们，他们真的会伤害我们，我们都希望生活在一个完全安全的世界里。但我最近一直在做的一项工作，就是尝试着，嗯，你知道，与我内心深处那个更加年轻的自我对话，那个没有把自己封闭起来，那个不会过度担忧未来的自我。我会尽可能地活在当下，专注于我生活中拥有的美好事物。追求目标很重要，渴望得到某些东西也很重要，我当然也有一些想要实现的目标，想要建立一些东西，主要是在人际关系和家庭方面，但我更想要享受我所拥有的一切，例如健康，以及与你进行这样一番对话的机会。如果我们能够真正地珍惜我们所拥有的一切，我们每个人都会拥有 extraordinary 的人生。

I used to think that if we paid attention to those gifts, and focus too much on gratitude, that it would make us complacent. But, all the data, of course, and my own experience as I do this more and more, really emphasize how, all it does, is give us more energy, more anticipation of what’s possible and the great things to come. And you know, it can all start to sound a little cliche. Like, “Just be happy with what you’ve got.” There, there’s no “just” in that statement. I’m saying, “Be happy with the things you’ve got.” And from that state, new things emerge, more energy comes, and you can start to really navigate forward. Not just sit complacently and like stop there, um, I think it’s our essence, as biological beings and psychological beings, and if you will, spiritual beings, if that’s your, you’re leaning, to to want, um, to want more. I think that’s normal. But, we have to savor what we have also. And I think once we savor what we have, we have more energy to want more, and and that’s that’s the perfect circle that just is, I guess, it’s more of an upward spiral. And here, I’m sounding very abstract, but I could easily, and you know exhaustively, put everyone to sleep with long, mechanistic descriptions of how research on motivation, or dopamine, or, um, any number of different neural systems, or physiological systems, support all of that. I think the most important thing is that people are honest with themselves about what they can reasonably work on right now. And to be you know, gentle with themselves enough to like coax themselves forward, but occasionally scruff yourself and be like, “It’s time. You know, it’s time.” And, um, I don’t know. It’s certainly been an interesting life thus far. I’m still navigating, you know? And, um, I certainly don’t have all the answers, but as I learn, I try and share what I do learn.

我曾经认为，如果我们总是关注于我们所拥有的东西，并且过分地强调感恩，我们会变得 complacent。但是，所有的数据，以及我自身的经验，都告诉我，这样做只会让我们更有活力，对未来充满期待，并对即将发生的美好事物充满期待。这听起来可能有点老套，例如：“要珍惜你所拥有的一切。”但这并不是一句简单的陈词滥调，我是在说：“要真正地珍惜你所拥有的一切。”从这种状态出发，你将会发现新的机遇，你将会获得更多的能量，你将会不断地前进。你不会停滞不前，我认为，这是我们作为生物、心理存在，以及精神存在的本质，我们会渴望拥有更多，我认为这是正常的。但我们也必须珍惜我们已经拥有的东西，我认为，一旦我们学会珍惜我们已经拥有的东西，我们就会更有动力去追求更多，这就会形成一个完美的循环，或者说，一个螺旋上升的过程。我的描述可能听起来很抽象，但我可以轻易地，并且详尽地，用关于动机、多巴胺，或者其他神经系统和生理系统，是如何支持这一切的长篇大论，让每个人都昏昏欲睡。我认为，最重要的是，人们要对自己诚实，了解自己目前的能力范围，并且要温柔地对待自己，鼓励自己前进，但也要偶尔鞭策自己，告诉自己：“是时候做出改变了。”我的生活充满了趣味，我仍在探索，你知道吗？我当然没有所有的答案，但我一直在学习，并且会分享我学到的东西。

Steven: What has helped you on that journey? That journey to, really, kind of, because the way I heard it is you’re someone that’s orientated towards pursuing your goals, and you’re very, very driven in that regard. But, you’re you’re kind of having to, kind of, maybe this is not the right word, but kind of unlearn a natural disposition, and shift more towards another state. You talked about therapy there, you, um, what has helped?

史蒂文: 是什么帮助你完成了那段旅程？那段转变的旅程，因为在我看来，你是一个目标导向型的人，你在这方面非常努力。但你似乎在尝试，嗯，也许这不是一个合适的词，但你似乎在尝试 unlearn 一种天生的性格，并转变为另一种状态。你刚才提到了心理治疗，嗯，还有什么其他的方法帮助了你？

Andrew: Well, I think you know, I was forced into therapy as a way to get out of lockup. I had to, to stay in high school, I had to go routinely, and so I did. Um, I think it can be very helpful, provided there’s good rapport, support, and the person offers insight that lends itself to action, right? It’s not just about finding someone to support and listen. Someone has to inspire action that makes you a better person. Okay? That, and that’s really important. So, not just talking about playing with your problems, you know, “Story fondling”, as it’s sometimes called.

安德鲁: 嗯，我当时被迫接受心理治疗，以便能够离开那个地方。为了能够继续读高中，我必须定期接受治疗，所以我去了。我认为，心理治疗可能非常有帮助，只要你和治疗师之间建立了良好的关系，并且治疗师能够为你提供一些有价值的建议，这些建议能够帮助你采取行动，而不仅仅是找到一个人来倾听你的问题。治疗师需要激励你采取行动，让你成为一个更好的人，这非常重要，而不仅仅是反复地讲述你的问题，或者说“玩弄你的故事”。“

I think one has to understand that there’s a relationship between physiology and emotion. So, if I’m waking up, and I don’t feel well because I didn’t sleep enough, yeah, I’ll do NSDR, I’ll get some sunlight, and I’ll go exercise, and generally I feel better. But, I also have learned to not mask real feelings by simply trying to shift my physiology. Just as people are starting to learn, “Hey, yes, there are useful medications for dealing with mental health issues, but you still have to do the work. You still have to focus on building career, building relationships, doing the work.

我认为，我们必须理解，生理和情绪之间存在着密切的联系。所以，如果我醒来后感觉不舒服，因为我没有睡够，我会做 NSDR，我会晒太阳，我会去锻炼，通常情况下，我的感觉会好很多。但我也学会了，不要仅仅通过改变我的生理状态来掩盖我的真实感受。就像人们逐渐意识到，虽然有一些药物可以帮助我们治疗心理健康问题，但我们仍然需要努力，我们需要专注于我们的事业，经营我们的人际关系，我们需要去做那些需要做的事情。

I think one of the most useful things that I’ve learned, again, I’m a big fan of Martha Beck. She’s triple degreed from Harvard, but she also has this mystical spiritual side that it really brings together a lot. I asked her recently, I said, “You know, what do you do when the thinking mind is like trying to analyze something, predict things, and then you also have all this feeling, which one do you rely on?” She says, “Ah, the the way to do this is you imagine you have your feelings in one hand, and your thoughts in the other, and they’re kind of like in this battle.” It’s like, “Okay, what’s going to happen next? What are they going to do this?” How you go back and forth, typically, people are texting, and calling, and looking, and drinking, and doing whatever is to try and resolve this battle. The solution is to see that battle, and to sit back into this third position that she calls the “Compassionate Observer”. You’re like, “Okay, this is both happening. These are both happening.” And to sit in this third position where the acceptance of that suffering shows up, and you’re able to just like sit with the suffering. And the moment she said, “Sit with the suffering”, I was like, “No.” You know, “I don’t want that answer.” But then, she explained, “From that place of suffering, you start to drop into, ‘What are the thoughts that make you feel a little bit looser and more relaxed in your body? What are the thoughts that make you feel kind of more constricted?’ And you just start to use that as a bit of a navigator, and start asking questions like you know, ‘Do I want to do this thing? Like, do I want to drink this coffee, or not? Am I just doing it compulsively? Do I want to exercise?’” And it sounds very abstract, extremely woo, but the brilliance of what she does, and the brilliance of that scenario, is that it brings together all the neuroscience that we know. We have a thinking, analytic part of the brain that does what I call DPOA, duration path outcome analysis. We also have emotional states of the brain, the lyic system, it’s sometimes called, but it’s a bunch of other areas too. And it doesn’t know the the calendar, as Paul Ketti, brilliant psychiatrist, says, “Feelings don’t know that it’s today in July 2024. It thinks you’re eight years old.” That the lyic system, your emotions, they don’t know the clock of the calendar. It doesn’t know how old you are. It just knows you and circumstances, and feeling. So, being able to step back from all of that, is really what being a healthy human being is about.

我觉得，我最近学到的一个非常有用的道理，源于玛莎·贝克（Martha Beck）。我非常崇拜她，她不仅在哈佛拿了三个学位，还拥有一种神秘的灵性智慧，能够将很多深奥的东西融合在一起。最近我问她一个问题，我说：“当我们在思考时，大脑总是在分析和预测，而同时我们也会有各种情绪，这时应该依靠哪一个呢？” 她回答说：“其实你可以想象，把你的情绪放在一只手上，把你的思想放在另一只手上，它们仿佛在进行一场角力。” 就像，“接下来会发生什么？它们将如何行动？” 人们常常会在这种内心的冲突中来回切换，可能通过发短信、打电话、喝酒等方式来尝试解决这场冲突。而真正的解决之道在于，你要认识到这场内心的争斗，然后退回到一个第三方的视角，玛莎称之为“同情的观察者”。从这个位置，你可以意识到，情绪和思想都在发生，同时接受那种痛苦。当她说到“与痛苦共处”时，我当时心里抗拒，“不，我不想这样。” 但她接着解释道，“正是在这种痛苦的状态下，你可以开始问自己一些问题：‘什么样的想法能让你感到身体的放松？什么样的想法会让你感到压抑？’ 你可以以此作为一种导航工具，开始探问自己：‘我真的想做这件事吗？我是真的想喝这杯咖啡，还是只是出于习惯？我想锻炼吗？’” 虽然听起来非常抽象，甚至有些玄乎，但她的智慧在于她能够将这些理念与我们已知的神经科学相结合。我们的大脑中有一个负责思考和分析的部分，我称之为DPOA，即“持续时间-路径-结果分析”模式。同时，我们还有大脑的情绪部分，有时称为边缘系统，但实际上涉及到更多区域。正如杰出的精神病学家保罗·凯蒂所说，“情感并不知道现在是什么时间，它们只知道你当下的处境和感觉。” 所以，真正健康的生活方式，就是能够从这些冲突中退后一步，理性地看待和处理它们。

And then realizing you’re suffering. Like, in that battle, you’re suffering. And when you relax that a little bit, and you go, “Okay, I’m not going to force myself to suffer as much now. What feels right? What feels right right now, for like the next five minutes?” Well then, you can navigate the next five minutes. Maybe it’s take a nap, maybe it’s have a meal, maybe it’s do a little bit of work, maybe it’s, you don’t know, and you just sit there. But then, five minutes later, you’re able to pick the next best choice, and the next best choice, and pretty soon you’re off and on your way. Because so often, we get avalanched by our feelings, or our thoughts, or we can’t sleep. And it’s just like a, and people are losing their minds, and they’re online looking for a solution, or they use distraction, alcohol, mindless scrolling. By the way, I love social media. I teach on social media, and I learn on social media, from your podcast, and Joe’s podcast, Lex’s podcast, and Tim’s, and on and on. So, I’m not demonizing it, but mindless consumption, inebriation, numbing ourselves, or forcing ourselves to do things that are not in service to our well-being, none of that is good.

然后，你要意识到，你在受苦，在这场思想与情绪的斗争中，你正在受苦。当你稍微放松一下，你会想：“好吧，我现在不想再强迫自己受苦了。什么才是正确的选择？现在什么才是正确的选择？接下来的五分钟我应该做什么？”然后，你就可以安排好接下来的五分钟，也许是睡个午觉，也许是吃顿饭，也许是做一些工作，也许是，你也不知道应该做什么，你只是静静地坐着。然后，五分钟后，你又可以做出下一个选择，就这样一个接一个地选择，你很快就会找到你的方向。因为我们经常会被我们的情绪或思绪所淹没，或者我们无法入睡，人们正在失去理智，他们上网寻找解决方案，或者他们通过分散注意力、酗酒、无意识地浏览网页来麻痹自己。顺便说一句，我非常喜欢社交媒体，我会在社交媒体上分享知识，也会在社交媒体上学习，我会从你的播客、乔的播客、莱克斯的播客、蒂姆的播客等等中学习。所以，我并不是在 demonizing 社交媒体，但无意识地消费信息，酗酒，麻痹自己，或者强迫自己去做那些对我们没有益处的事情，这些都是错误的做法。

What’s good, is being able to sit with it. And in doing that, I’ve started to realize that you get back to what she calls, and again, the language sounds woo, but who cares? She’s the one with 3D re from Harvard, so call her whatever you want. You know, is the, what she calls, “essential self,” which I think refers to our own unique wiring. What really feels right to us, trusting in our own goodness, trusting that if we just navigate forward from that “Compassionate Observer” place, that we are going to be, in some cases we need to be fierce, we need to be warrior, in other cases we need to be soft and compassionate, and then we can be all of those things depending on what the the situation calls for, and then we can just like sit back and move forward, and that we’re going to be okay. In fact, we’re going to be better than okay. And that when we bring that stance, that like calm energetic stance to things, and other people, we also have a ton to give. We can be in so much service.

正确的做法是，与你的痛苦和平共处。在这样做的过程中，我开始意识到，你会回归到她所说的，她的用词听起来很 woo，但谁在乎呢？她可是拥有哈佛大学三个学位的人，所以你想怎么称呼她就怎么称呼她。她将这种状态称为“essential self”，我认为它指的是我们每个人独特的 wiring。什么对我们来说才是正确的，我们要相信自己的善良，相信只要我们能够从“Compassionate Observer”的视角出发，我们就能做出正确的选择。在某些情况下，我们需要变得 fierce，我们需要像战士一样勇敢；而在另一些情况下，我们需要变得温柔和富有同情心。我们可以根据不同的情况，选择不同的应对方式，然后我们就可以平静地继续前进，我们最终会没事的，事实上，我们会比“没事”更好。当我们以一种平静而充满活力的姿态去面对生活，以及与他人相处的时候，我们也会给予他人很多，我们可以为他人提供很多帮助。

This is one of the reasons I think people love Rick. I think about Rick a lot, Rick Rubin’s a close friend, and I’m very blessed. And it’s not because he’s Rick Rubin, the famous musician. In fact, I know zero minus one about hip-hop.

我认为，这就是人们喜欢里克的原因之一。我经常想起里克，里克·鲁宾是我的好友，我非常幸运能够认识他。这并不是因为他就是大名鼎鼎的音乐制作人里克·鲁宾，事实上，我对嘻哈音乐一无所知。

Steven: Yeah.

史蒂文: 是的。

Andrew: I just don’t, it wasn’t a genre I followed. I like some of it, but, but one thing is that when Rick shows up, he’s just like there. He’s super present. He’s not there to give you anything, but he gives. And he’s not there to take anything, you, he’s just there. And I think that’s why people love him. I think that’s why people love him. Yes, he’s been super successful in all these different domains. And when people try and poke at Rick, that’s something it really pisses me off. You want to really get me worked up? Try and pick on one of my close friends. Like, I, that’s a place where I am like, you know, “Come at me, attack me all day,” and you, people do, but if you try and attack people I know, in their true goodness, Lex, or Rick, or any number of my different friends, famous or not, like, that’s when I’m going to you know, that’s when a side of me comes out that frankly, I I’m proud of. Like, “I’m gna hit, hit you. And I’m going to hit you hard.” I’m going to be fair, but like, you can’t do that. Because, these are really good people, trying to do the best they can in the world. And this is true, me protecting my sister, you know? I’ll also be the first, if a friend is out of line, to say something. But, the people I’m referring to here, they show up with like all their goodness. Joe’s the same way, and people talk about Joe, and I’m like, people have tried to get me to talk about him, reporters have called me, to try and set me up, like a trap, a snake, air trap, to say things about him. No chance. He’s done things that I’ve seen, that had nothing to do with me, in service to others, that are completely quiet, that no one will ever hear about, that absolutely tell me that he is a huge-hearted person, who cares about the world, and takes care of people close to him, and far away from him, without the expectation of anything in return. And I’m not saying this so that he likes me more. I’m saying this because it’s true. And I think that, you know, Martha Beck’s another one. Or people that like, they just want to give. And so, when I see people attacking people, and I can sense this about you, we’re getting to know one another here. Like, the fact that you try to attack someone whose fundamental goal is to try and serve the world, build things to serve, like, and there are a few things that get my adrenaline going like that, but that’s not okay. It’s not okay. And I think it’s really important that we stand up for people who are not known, either we stand up up for them and that we say, “That’s not okay. You can’t take cheap shots like that.” And so, I think times are changing there. Times are changing.

安德鲁: 我只是不喜欢嘻哈音乐，它不是我喜欢的音乐类型，我喜欢其中的一些歌曲，但里克的特别之处在于，当他出现的时候，他会让你感觉到他完全专注于你，他不是为了给你任何东西，但他会给予，他也不是为了从你这里得到什么，他只是在那里。我认为，这就是人们喜欢他的原因。是的，他在许多不同的领域都取得了巨大的成功，当人们试图攻击里克的时候，我就会非常生气。要是你挑衅我的亲密朋友，那我就真的会怒不可遏。我是那种你可以整天攻击我都无所谓的人，但如果你去攻击那些我认识并且真心善良的人，比如Lex，Rick，或者我的其他朋友，无论他们是否出名，我就会表现出另一面，而老实说，我为此感到骄傲。我会公平对待，但你不能那样做。因为这些人真的在尽力做好事，这让我联想到保护我的家人。我也是那种如果朋友做错了会立即指出来的人。但我提到的这些人，他们真的带着满满的善意而来。Joe也是，人们谈论Joe的时候，有记者试图引导我说他坏话，给我设陷阱，但我绝不会上当。我亲眼看到过他为别人默默做的好事，这些事和我无关，没人会知道，但这证明了他是个心胸宽广、关心世界的人，他关心身边和远方的人，从不期待回报。我说这些不是为了让他更喜欢我，而是因为这些都是真的。Martha Beck也是如此，很多人都只是想付出。当我看到别人攻击这些人时，我会立刻感受到，就像我们现在在互相了解一样。你要是攻击那些真心为世界做贡献的人，真的能让我肾上腺素飙升，但那是不可接受的。这是不可接受的。我认为我们有责任为那些不为人知的人发声，我们应该站出来说，“那不对。你不能这样随意攻击别人。”我觉得时代在改变，事情在好转。

You know, the, um, I don’t have anything against traditional media. I see the way they capitalize on things. They’ll put different names and URLs, and trying and bring clicks and stuff. Look, they’re just trying to make an income. Um, and I think some of them, presumably, are good people, just trying to do their thing. What I love about podcasters, what I love about the early you know the skateboarders I knew from the skateboard era, some I still touch with now, um, punk rockers, the people in creative areas, artists and musicians and poets, is like, they didn’t get into it because they thought people would like them, or they’d make a lot of money. And a lot of times, they take ridicule. They got into it because it’s who they are. It’s their essence, they’re just being them. And I think we can really tell when somebody’s just being themselves. It’s like their real essence just brought forward, and they’re taking fire and they’re taking shrapnel and they’re, and they do it anyway, you know? I’m, I know he’s very popular now, um, even though he’s dead, um, but I’ve always loved Jean-Michel Basquiat’s work. And if you watch that movie, I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie Basquiat. Not the the documentary, but amazing movie. It’s got Dennis Hopper, Parker Posey, um, David Bowie plays, um, Andy Warhol. It’s an amazing cast. Willem Dafoe. It’s just an amazing cast. And there’s this incredible scene where Jean-Michel, and Benicio del Toro, who I believe was playing Jean-Michel’s friend, who was Vincent Gallo, Jean-Michel says to him, he goes, “Hey, Benny, how long do you think it takes to get famous?” And the answer that Benicio del Toro gives him is amazing. He talks about how fame ultimately just brings a lot of attack, and how that can really collapse the artist. And it’s, it’s a beautiful two-minute riff on YouTube that everyone should go watch. And if anyone out there thinks they want to be famous, I’ll tell you, you do not want to be famous. Famous takes away your freedom.

你知道，我并不反对传统媒体，我理解他们运作的方式，他们会使用各种方法来吸引眼球，例如使用不同的标题和链接，试图获得更多的点击量。他们只是想要赚钱，我相信，他们中的一些人，presumably，也是好人，他们只是在做他们认为应该做的事情。但我喜欢那些播客主持人，我喜欢我认识的那些滑板运动员，有些我至今仍然保持着联系，以及那些朋克摇滚歌手，那些从事创意工作的人，艺术家、音乐家以及诗人，他们之所以选择这些职业，并不是因为他们想要获得人们的喜爱，或者赚很多钱，他们很多时候会被人嘲笑。他们选择这些职业，是因为这就是他们的本性，这就是他们的本质，他们只是在做自己。我们能够分辨出一个人是否在做自己，他们的真实本性会自然流露，他们会面对各种挑战，但他们仍然坚持做自己，你知道吗？我，我知道他（指让-米歇尔·巴斯奎特）现在很受欢迎，虽然他已经去世了，但我一直都很喜欢他的作品。如果你看过那部电影，我不知道你是否看过《巴斯奎特》，不是纪录片，而是那部故事片。那部电影的演员阵容非常强大，丹尼斯·霍珀、帕克·波西，大卫·鲍伊饰演安迪·沃霍尔，还有威廉·达福，等等。影片中有一个令人印象深刻的片段，让-米歇尔问贝尼西奥·德尔·托罗，我相信他扮演的是让-米歇尔的朋友，文森特·加洛，他说：“嘿，本尼，你认为成名需要多长时间？”贝尼西奥·德尔·托罗给出的答案很棒，他说，成名只会带来更多的攻击，这些攻击最终会摧毁艺术家。这是一个非常精彩的片段，你可以在 YouTube 上找到它，每个人都应该去看一看。如果有人想要成名，我告诉你，你最好不要成名，因为成名会让你失去自由。

People say they want to be famous, you absolutely don’t. What you want is, you want a friend, or friends, that you love and that love you. You want to have enough resources, plus a bit more, so that you feel safe, right? Anyone that says, “You only need $70,000 a year in order to be happy,” because some study said that, you need enough money so that you feel safe about your present in your future. That number differs for different people. Okay? So, that’s a study, I don’t care what the data say. Like, look at the real world. And usually, it’s a rich person saying you only need that amount of money, by the way. You need some sense of passion, or connection to the world, and you need a sense of freedom, that you can be you, and that you won’t get attacked for it. We know this throughout history. This has been proven over and over again. So, fame is like, frame, takes away your freedom. The rest of it, social connection, some resources, a connection to some passionate exploration, curiosity, even if it’s very private and no one ever sees it. Like, those things are, are really what make life rich, it really, really does. And I have fantasies about just disappearing, taking a small group off to some hidden village, and we do our thing. But, but I know myself too well, I’d want to, um, I’d want to connect with the world more. It’s just in my nature to want to do that. So, I suppose I’m kind of hosed, and I suppose the world’s kind of stuck with me until they aren’t.

人们总是说他们想要成名，但我告诉你，你绝对不想成名，你真正想要的是，拥有一个或者几个你爱，并且爱你的人，你想要拥有足够的资源，再多一点，让你感到安全，对吧？有些人会说：“你每年只需要 7 万美元就能过上幸福的生活。”因为某些研究是这样说的，但你需要足够的钱，让你对现在和未来感到安心，而这个数字因人而异。那只是一个研究，我不在乎数据怎么说，你要看看现实世界，通常都是那些有钱人才会说你只需要 7 万美元就能过上幸福的生活。你需要对这个世界充满热情，你需要与这个世界建立连接，你需要一种自由的感觉，让你可以做你自己，并且不会因此而受到攻击。我们从历史中得知，这一点已经被反复证明了。所以，名声就像是一个框架，它会束缚你的自由。其他的东西，例如社交关系，一定的物质基础，对某些事物的热情探索和好奇心，即使这些东西非常私密，没有人知道，它们才是让生活变得丰富多彩的真正原因。我有时会幻想，带着一小群人，去到一个与世隔绝的地方，过着自给自足的生活。但我太了解我自己了，我最终还是会想要与外界联系，这是我的本性。所以，我想我注定要与这个世界相连，我想世界也会继续被我“困扰”，直到他们不再需要我。

Steven: But, no. I I have those fantasies as well. And I arrive at the same conclusion, that I’d eventually do something in the village which would bring me back to society, and then bring me back to probably sitting in this chat.

史蒂文: 不，我也有过这样的幻想，但我最终也会得出和你一样的结论，我最终会在那个与世隔绝的地方做出一些事情，让我重新回到社会，然后再次坐在这里与你聊天。

Andrew: Well, and you know, I’ve thought about getting some people together, and we should do this. We could get a property, put a bunch of houses, put a gym, a sauna, could have a podcast studio, but guess what they’d call it? A cult. They’d be like, “They started a cult”, right? They’d find something. Be like, “They started a cult”. Because, I think, to people that are not passionate creators, and again I’m not just talking about podcasters, but that aren’t passionate creators, they don’t understand, like they don’t understand that certain people just need to create.

安德鲁: 我一直想方设法从你身边的人那里了解这本书的一些内容，大家对这本书的期待和兴奋之情溢于言表。所以，感谢你花费时间撰写这本书，因为你其实没有必要这样做。你的受众已经足够多了，你没有必要花费时间和精力将这些知识整理成书。

Um, and more than anything, just thank you. I really, really appreciate that what you do, and that the fact that you exist, and all that you’ve done for me, and and all my my friends, and people that matter to me. So, thank you on behalf of all of us us. And I really, really mean that from the bottom of my heart. So, thank you.

最重要的是，我想再次表达我的感谢。我非常感激你所做的一切，感激你的存在，感激你为我、我的朋友以及所有对我重要的人所做的一切。我代表我们所有人谢谢你，这番感谢发自我的内心深处。

Thank you. I’ll take that in. And, um, I’m very grateful for the opportunity to sit down with you today. I’m a huge fan and admirer of what you’ve done, and what you’re doing. And, uh, right back at you, in the sense that you have many, many areas of success. You don’t need to do a podcast, um, but the fact that you do bring so much benefit to the world, it’s been just marvelous to see your ascent, which is just like pointed at the sun. You just, you guys are are doing such incredible work, and continue to.

谢谢你，我会牢记你的这番话。我非常感谢今天有机会和你坐下来交流。我是你的忠实粉丝，十分钦佩你过去所取得的成就以及你正在做的事情。我想说，你其实也没有必要做播客，因为你在很多领域都取得了巨大的成功。但你仍然在做播客，并且为世界带来了如此多的益处，看到你的发展如此迅速，真的非常棒。你们团队正在做着非常棒的工作，并且会继续下去。

And um, I have to say, I, I came here today expecting we were going to get into some science and to some protocols, and I knew we were going to cover a lot of areas. Um, but I didn’t anticipate, uh, the depth of the conversation that we were going to have. And I can say, it’s entirely the consequence of of your realness and and the uh the genuine compassion that you bring to these kinds of conversations. That’s felt.

我必须要说，我今天来的时候，以为我们会讨论一些科学知识和一些具体的行动方案，我知道我们会涉及很多领域。但我没想到我们之间的谈话会如此深入。我可以说，这完全是因为你真诚的态度以及你发自内心的同理心，这些特质在谈话中能够被清晰地感受到。

I also really appreciate the way you shared some of your own experience. I can tell you’re somebody who really cares about people, and that your success is you know, in no small part the consequence of that. So, thank you for having me here, and to your team for having me here, and um, for for doing what you do. It’s clear you’re all-in, in every endeavor.

我非常欣赏你分享个人经历的方式。我能感受到你是一个真正关心他人的人，你的成功很大程度上源于这份关心。感谢你邀请我来到这里，也感谢你的团队，感谢你们所做的一切。很明显，你们在每件事情上都全力以赴。

And your nature is is an incredible one. The fact that you can take on so many things, and that you’ve embraced your nature to, uh, not want to go the traditional path. I think that’s an incredible and incredibly important example for people.

你的性格非常棒，你能够同时处理这么多事情，并且你能够接受自己的天性，不去选择传统的人生道路，我认为这为人们树立了一个非常好的榜样，意义重大。

So, I can also say that I think that, uh, we’re going to be friends. So, you should pass me your number. We’ll we’ll check in in the morning, and we should grab a meal or a workout, or whatever. Maybe just hang out. So, I, I’d like to think that, uh, we’ve, uh, sparked a friendship.

所以，我想说，我认为我们会成为朋友。你可以把你的联系方式给我，我们明天早上可以联系，我们可以一起吃饭、锻炼，或者做些其他的事情，或许只是单纯地一起聊聊天。我认为，我们之间已经产生了友谊的火花。

Steven: We certainly have. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you.

史蒂文：我们当然会成为朋友。谢谢你，安德鲁，谢谢你。

备注

此翻译由youtube字幕下载器下载英文字幕，由Gemini 1.5 Pro整理翻译，仅供参考

相关文章:

• 2024/08/30   这是我们所不知道的一切 - 中英双语
• 2024/08/29   Lex Friedman 访谈 John Danaher 柔术、缠斗、柔道和综合格斗的精通之路 - 中英双语
• 2024/08/28   Lex Friedman 访谈 Roger Penrose 意识的物理学与无限宇宙 - 中英双语
• 2024/08/27   Lex Friedman 访谈 Leonard Susskind 量子力学、弦理论和黑洞 - 中英双语
• 2024/08/26   Lex Friedman 访谈 Chris Lattner - 中英双语