Lex Friedman 访谈 John Danaher 柔术、缠斗、柔道和综合格斗的精通之路 - 中英双语

约翰·丹纳赫尔访谈 20个要点总结

1. 死亡与虚无: 约翰是一位唯物主义者，认为死亡是“虚无”状态，如同出生之前一样。 他不畏惧死亡，认为它是赋予生命价值的关键。

2. 生命的意义: 约翰认为生命的意义在于追求超越个体的事物，为更大的群体服务，并在这个过程中找到快乐。

3. 巴西柔术的本质: 巴西柔术既是一门科学，也是一门艺术。它利用力学原理和战术策略，将自身力量集中攻击对手弱点，创造力量不对称以取得胜利。

4. 技术的选择: 技术的选择不仅取决于成功率，也是个人风格和价值观的体现。

5. “钻研”的意义: “钻研”不是机械的重复练习，而是要理解技术原理，并通过不断调整和改进，将知识转化为熟练的技能。

6. 训练伙伴的选择: 训练伙伴的选择非常重要，既要和水平相近的对手对抗，也要和水平较低的对手一起练习，才能全面提升技术水平。

7. 接受失败: 在训练中要坦然接受失败，不要害怕犯错，因为训练的目的是为了学习和进步，而不是为了证明自己。

8. 建立自信: 自信是取得成功的关键，而建立自信最好的方法就是熟练掌握逃脱技术，让自己不再害怕陷入不利局面。

9. 循序渐进的训练: 训练要循序渐进，不能操之过急，就像举重一样，要从轻重量开始，逐渐增加重量。

10. 机会成本: 任何选择都是有“机会成本”的，选择练习某一项技术，就意味着放弃了练习其他技术的机会。

11. “五年计划”: 约翰认为，只要全身心地投入，并制定科学合理的训练计划，任何人都可以在五年内掌握一项技能，达到世界级水平。

12. 坚持不懈: 坚持不懈是取得成功的关键，不仅要坚持训练，更要坚持思考，不断改进训练方法。

13. 优秀教练的标准: 一个优秀的教练不仅要传授知识，更要帮助学生建立自信，找到适合自己的训练方法，并将知识转化为技能。

14. 罗杰·格雷西: 约翰认为罗杰·格雷西是最伟大的巴西柔术选手，他将最基础的技术运用到了极致，展现出了令人惊叹的统治力。

15. 戈登·瑞恩: 约翰认为戈登·瑞恩是最伟大的格斗家，他不仅精通传统技术，还开创性地将下半身攻击技术融入到自己的技术体系中。

16. 乔治·圣皮埃尔: 乔治·圣皮埃尔是一位非常自律和勤奋的选手，他克服了对失败的恐惧，并将“站立式摔跤”发展成了一门科学。

17. 机器学习与“人机大战”: 机器学习程序在国际象棋和围棋领域已经完全战胜了人类，这既令人兴奋，也让人担忧。

18. “半机械人”的优势: 如果将人类的 strategic thinking 和 heuristics 与计算机的运算能力结合起来，将会创造出一种非常强大的力量。

19. 机器人的局限性: 目前，机器人在感知和操控方面还远远落后于人类，要制造出一个能够在现实世界中进行格斗的机器人，还面临着巨大的挑战。

20. 科技与人类: 科技的发展对人类社会的影响是巨大的，我们应该谨慎地使用科技，避免它给我们带来灾难性的后果。

Lex Friedman 访谈 John Danaher 中英文全文翻译

Lex: The following is a conversation with John Danaher, widely acknowledged as one of the greatest coaches and minds in the martial arts world, having coached many champions in Jiu-Jitsu, submission grappling, and MMA including Gordon Ryan, Gary Tonon, Nick Rodriguez, Craig Jones, Nicky Ryan, Chris Weidman, and George St-Pierre. Quick mention of our sponsors: Onnit, Simply Safe, Indeed, and Linode. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that John is a scholar of not just Jiu-Jitsu but Judo, wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing, MMA, and outside of that, topics of history, psychology, philosophy, and even artificial intelligence, as you’ll hear in this conversation. After this chat, I started to entertain the possibility of returning back to competition as a black belt, maybe even training with John and his team for a few weeks leading up to the competition. For a recreational practitioner such as myself, the value of training and competing in Jiu-Jitsu is that it is one of the best ways to get humbled. To me, keeping the ego in check is essential for a productive and happy life. This is The Lex Friedman Podcast, and here is my conversation with John Danaher. Are you afraid of death? Let’s start with an easy question. There’s no warm-up, that’s it, they’re jumping jacks.

莱克斯: 今天我们邀请到了约翰·丹纳赫尔，他是武术界公认最杰出的教练和思想家之一，曾指导过戈登·瑞恩、加里·托农、尼克·罗德里格斯、克雷格·琼斯、尼基·瑞恩、克里斯·韦德曼和乔治·圣皮埃尔等众多巴西柔术、降服式格斗和MMA冠军。 我们的赞助商包括 Onnit, Simply Safe, Indeed 和 Linode， 感谢他们对节目的支持，大家可以在节目描述中找到他们的信息。 约翰不仅精通巴西柔术，还对柔道、摔跤、泰拳、拳击、MMA 以及历史、心理学、哲学和人工智能等领域都有深入研究。 这次聊天结束后，我开始认真考虑以黑带身份重返赛场，或许可以跟约翰和他的团队一起训练几周，为比赛做准备。 对我这样的业余练习者来说，巴西柔术的训练和比赛是让人保持谦逊的最佳途径之一。 我认为，控制自我对于过上充实而幸福的生活至关重要。 这里是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客，今天我们将与约翰·丹纳赫尔一起探讨死亡、意义和机器人。 你害怕死亡吗？ 让我们从这个简单的问题开始，直奔主题吧。

John: Let’s uh, let’s break that down into two questions. Um, I’m a human being and like any human being I’m biologically programmed to be terrified of death. Every physical element in our bodies is designed to keep us away from death. I’m no different from anyone else in that regard. If you throw me from the top of the Empire State Building, I’m gonna scream all the way down to the concrete. Um, if you wave a loaded firearm in my face I’m going to flinch away in horror the same way anyone else would. Um, so in that first sense of “are you afraid of death?” uh, my my body is terrified of injury leading to death the same way in any other human being would. So when death is imminent, there’s a terror that goes through, the same adrenaline dumps that you would go through um uh, but on the other hand, you’re also asking a much deeper question, which is presumably “are you afraid of non-existence,” what comes after your physical death, and that’s the more interesting question. Um, no, uh, I should start right, uh, by by by saying from from the start, I i I’m a materialist. I don’t believe that we have an immortal soul. I don’t believe there’s a life after our physical death. Um, in this sense, from someone who starts from that point of view, you have to understand that everyone has two deaths. We always talk about our death as though there was only one but we all have two deaths. There was a time before you were born when you were dead. You weren’t afraid of that period of non-existence. You don’t even think about it, so why would you be afraid of your second period of non-existence? You came from non-existence, you’re going to go back into it. You weren’t afraid of the first, why are you somehow afraid of the second? So it doesn’t really make sense to me as to why people would be afraid of non-existence. You dealt with it fine the first time, um, deal with it the second time.

约翰: 莱克斯，让我们把这个问题拆解成两个部分。 首先，作为人类，我的生理本能就是惧怕死亡，就像所有人类一样。 我们身体的每一个组成部分都是为了让我们远离死亡而设计的。 从这个角度来说，我和其他人没有区别。 如果你把我从帝国大厦顶楼扔下去，我会一路尖叫着坠落地面。 如果你用一把上了膛的枪指着我的脸，我也会像其他人一样惊恐地躲避。 所以，从“你害怕死亡吗”的第一个层面来说，我的身体害怕会导致死亡的伤害，这和任何其他人一样。 当死亡迫近时，我会感到恐惧，肾上腺素也会飙升。 但另一方面，你其实问的是一个更深层次的问题，那就是“你害怕‘虚无’吗？”，也就是肉体死亡之后的状态。 这个问题更值得探讨。 首先，我必须说明，我是一个唯物主义者，我不相信灵魂不灭，也不相信肉体死亡之后还有生命。 从这个角度来说，我们每个人都会经历两次死亡。 我们总是谈论死亡，好像它只发生一次，但实际上我们都会经历两次死亡。 在你出生之前，你就处于死亡状态，你并不害怕那段“虚无”的时期，你甚至不会去想它。 那么，为什么你会害怕第二次“虚无”呢？ 你从“虚无”中来，也将回归“虚无”。 你既然不害怕第一次，又为何要害怕第二次呢？ 因此，我不理解人们为何会害怕“虚无”。 你第一次安然度过了它，第二次也一样可以。

Lex: But your mind didn’t exist for the first death and it won’t exist after you die, either.

莱克斯: 但你的意识在第一次死亡时并不存在，在你死后也不会存在。

John: But it does exist now, enough to comprehend that there’s this thing that you know nothing about that’s coming which is non-existence. Actually, you do know about it because you know what it was like before you were born. There was just nothing. Every every every time you go to sleep at night you get a sneak preview of death. It’s just this kind of, nothing happens. You wake up in the morning, you’re alive again.

约翰: 但你的意识现在确实存在，而且足以让你理解，即将到来的“虚无”是你一无所知的事物。 其实你并非一无所知，因为你知道出生之前是什么状态。 那时候什么都没有。 你每次晚上睡觉，都是对死亡的一次预演。 你什么都不会经历，只是在第二天早上醒来，重新回到活着的状态。

Lex: But it’s not about the sleeping, it’s about the falling asleep. And every night when you fall asleep you assume you’re going to wake up. Here, you know you’re not waking up and the knowledge is a whole step from that to the idea of fearing it. I’m fully aware that there’s going to be a time I don’t wake up, but are you going to be afraid of it? Is there some mortal terror you have of this?

莱克斯: 但重点不在于睡觉，而在于入睡的过程。 你每晚入睡时都默认自己会醒来。 但我们现在讨论的是你知道自己不会再醒来的情况。 从知道自己不会醒来，到对死亡产生恐惧，是截然不同的两件事。 我完全清楚自己终将有不会再醒来的一天，但你会害怕吗？ 你会对此感到极度恐惧吗？

John: No. You didn’t have it before. You don’t have it when you sleep. Um, going from the fact that you know you won’t wake up to terror is two different things. That’s an extra step and at that point you’re making a choice at that at that point.

约翰: 不会。 你出生之前不害怕死亡，睡觉的时候也不害怕。 从知道自己不会再醒来，到感到恐惧，是两回事。 那是你额外添加的情绪，是你主动做出的选择。

Lex: What about what some people in our in this context we might call like the third death, which is when um everybody forgets the entirety of consciousness in the universe forgets that you’ve ever existed, that John Danaher ever existed, so it’s almost like a cosmic death. It’s like everything goes, yeah.

莱克斯: 那么，对于有些人所说的“第三次死亡”你怎么看？ 在这个语境下， “第三次死亡” 指的是宇宙中所有意识都遗忘了你的存在，遗忘了约翰·丹纳赫尔的存在，就像是宇宙的死亡一样，一切都消逝了。

John: Not, not just, I would say it’s like knowledge. The history books forget about who you are because the history books, this is inevitable, by the way. We’re all very, very small players in a very big game and inevitably we’re all going to go at some point.

约翰: 我理解你的意思，这就像是知识的消逝。 历史书会忘记你，因为历史书记录的只是宏大的叙事，我们每个人在其中都只是微不足道的角色，最终都会被遗忘，这是不可避免的。

Lex: Yeah, but doesn’t, so you’re, it’s, it’s disappointing, of course. Like it’s um, but but it’s not even, it would be arrogance to say, um, “I’m disappointed in the idea that I will disappear,” but there’s this far greater things than me that will disappear. I mean, it it’s crushing to think that there’s going to come a time when no one will ever hear Beethoven’s symphonies again, that the mysteries of the pharaohs will be lost and no one will even comprehend they once existed. Like humanity has come up with so many amazing things over its existence, and to think that one day this is just all happening on a tiny speck in a distant corner of a very small galaxy and among millions of galaxies that this is all for nothing. Okay, I can understand. There’s a kind of dread that comes with this. Um uh, but there’s also a sense in which the moment you’re born and the moment you can think about these things you know this is your inevitable fate.

莱克斯: 当然，想到这些会让人感到失落。 但说“我对自己终将消失感到失望”未免太过自负，因为比我更伟大的事物最终也会消逝。 一想到总有一天，贝多芬的交响乐将无人聆听，法老的秘密将不为人知，甚至没有人会记得他们曾经存在过，就让人感到无比沮丧。 人类创造了如此多辉煌的成就，但最终都将发生在这个渺小星系中一个微不足道的角落里，在亿万个星系中，这一切都将化为乌有。 我能理解这种想法带来的恐惧，但同时，从你出生并开始思考的那一刻起，你就已经知道了自己最终的命运。

John: Is it so inevitable? So if we look at, we’re in Austin and there’s a guy named Elon Musk and he’s hoping in fact that is the drive behind many of his passions, is the human beings becoming multi-planetary species and expanding out, exploring, and colonizing the solar system, the galaxy, and maybe the rest of the universe. Is that something that fills you with excitement?

约翰: 但这种命运真的不可避免吗？ 比如埃隆·马斯克，他许多的热情都源于一个目标，那就是让人类成为多行星物种，向外扩张，探索和殖民太阳系、银河系，甚至整个宇宙。 你对此感到兴奋吗？

Lex: Uh, it’s as a project it’s very exciting. I um, the whole, I mean, we all grew up with science fiction, the idea of exploration, the same way, uh, human beings in earlier centuries were thrilled with the idea of discovering a new world, you know, America or some other part of the world that they sailed to and come back. But now, instead of sailing oceans, you’re sailing solar systems and ultimately even further. Um, so, of course, that’s exciting. But as far as relieving us from non-existence, it’s just plain a delaying game, because ultimately even the universe itself, if the laws of thermodynamics are correct, will ultimately die, of course.

莱克斯: 作为一项事业，这当然令人兴奋。 我们从小就接触科幻小说，对探索充满了幻想，就像几个世纪前的人们对发现新大陆（比如美洲）和其他地方感到兴奋一样。 但现在，我们探索的不再是海洋，而是太阳系，甚至更遥远的地方。 这的确令人激动，但就摆脱“虚无”而言，这只是一个拖延时间的策略，因为如果热力学定律是正确的，那么即使是宇宙本身最终也会走向灭亡。

John: We might not understand most of the physics and how the universe functions. You said laws of thermodynamics, but maybe that’s just a tiny little fraction of what the universe actually is. Maybe there’s multiple dimensions, maybe maybe there’s multiple universes, maybe the entirety of this experience, you know, there’s guys like Donald Hoffman. I think that all of this is just an illusion that we don’t, like human cognition and perception constructs a whole, it’s like a video game, it would construct, that’s very distant from the actual reality, and maybe one day we’ll understand that reality. Maybe it’ll be like the Matrix kind of thing. So there’s a lot of different possibilities here. And there’s also philosopher named Ernest Becker, I don’t know if you know that, is, he wrote Denial of Death, and his idea, he disagrees with you, but he’s dead now, is is that he thinks that the terror of death, the terror of the knowledge that we’re going to die is within all of us, and is in fact the driver behind most of the creativity that we do, exploring out into the universe. But also, you becoming one of the great scholars of the martial arts, the philosophers of fighting, is because you’re actually terrified of death, and you want, you want to somehow permeate, like your knowledge, your ideas, your essence, to permeate human civilization, so that even when your body dies, you live on.

约翰: 我们或许还没有真正理解宇宙的物理规律和运作机制。你提到了热力学定律，但那可能只是宇宙真相的冰山一角。 也许存在多重维度，也许存在多个宇宙，也许我们所经历的一切都只是一种幻觉，就像唐纳德·霍夫曼所说的那样。 他认为，人类的认知和感知构建了一个完全不同于现实的虚拟世界，就像电子游戏一样。 也许有一天我们能够理解真正的现实，就像电影《黑客帝国》中所描绘的那样。 因此，关于宇宙和现实存在着许多可能性。 哲学家欧内斯特·贝克尔在其著作《拒绝死亡》中提出了一个观点：他对死亡的恐惧，对我们终将死亡的认知，深植于每个人心中，并成为我们大多数创造行为的驱动力，包括探索宇宙。 他认为，你之所以成为武术界的伟大学者，格斗哲学家，也是因为你害怕死亡，你希望你的知识、思想和精髓能够融入人类文明，即使肉体消亡，你的精神也能永存。 他并不认同你的观点，但他现在已经去世了。

John: I would agree with him insofar as uh, death is the single greatest motivator for action. But going beyond that and saying it’s somehow terrifying, that’s that’s an extra step on his part. Um, and not everyone’s going to follow him on that step. I do believe that death is the single most important element in life that gives value to our days. If you think for example of a situation where a god came to you and gave you immortality, life would be very, very different for you. Uh, you’re a talented research scientist. You work to a schedule. Why? Because ultimately you know your life is finite and actually very finite, and could be even more so if fate plays its hand and you die an early death, or what have you. We never know what’s going to happen tomorrow. As such, we get work done as soon as we can. The moment you gain immortality, you can always put every project off. You can always say “I don’t need to do this today because I can do it four centuries from now.” And as you extend artificially a human life, the motivation to get things done here and now and work industriously and and excel fades away, because you can always come back to the idea that you can do this in the future. And so what gives value to our days is ultimately death. And value, it’s not the only form of, the reason behind value, but a huge part of what we consider value is scarcity, and death gives us scarcity of days, and is probably the single greatest motivator for almost every action we partake in.

约翰: 我同意他的部分观点，死亡确实是行动的最大驱动力，但说死亡“可怕”，那是他个人的主观看法，并非所有人都认同。 我认为，死亡是生命中最重要的元素，它赋予了我们每一天的价值。 想象一下，如果神灵降临，赐予你永生，你的生活将会截然不同。 作为一名优秀的研究科学家，你之所以按计划工作，是因为你知道自己的生命是有限的，而且非常短暂。 如果命运弄人，你可能还会英年早逝。 我们无法预知未来，所以会尽力尽快完成工作。 但如果你获得了永生，你就可以无限期地推迟任何计划，因为你总可以告诉自己“今天不做也没关系，我可以在四个世纪后再做”。 当人类的生命被人为延长，人们当下行动的动力、勤奋工作的热情和追求卓越的意愿都会逐渐消退，因为他们总可以把事情留到未来去做。 因此，赋予我们每一天价值的正是死亡。 价值的很大一部分源于稀缺性，而死亡赋予了时间以稀缺性，它可能是我们几乎所有行动背后的最大驱动力。

Lex: It’s kind of tragic and beautiful that what, what makes things amazing is that they end.

莱克斯: 事物之所以精彩，是因为它们终将结束，这既悲哀又美好。

John: Yeah. I think it would actually be a terrible burden to be immortal. You would um, life would be in many ways very hollow and meaningless, I think. People talk about death taking away the meaning of life, but I think immortality would have a very similar effect in a different direction.

约翰: 的确如此，我认为永生会成为一种可怕的负担，让生命变得空虚而毫无意义。 人们总是说死亡剥夺了生命的意义，但我认为永生也会产生类似的结果，只是方向不同。

Lex: So given this short life, we could think about Jiu-Jitsu, we can think about any kind of pursuit. What do you think makes a great life? Is it the highest peak of achievement? You know, you think about like an Olympic gold medal, the highest level of performance. Or is it the longevity of performance, of doing many amazing things and doing it for a long time? I think the latter is kind of what we talk about in at least American society. You know, we want people to be healthy, balanced, perform well for a long time. And then there’s maybe like the gladiator ethic, which is the highest peak is what defines you.

莱克斯: 既然生命如此短暂，无论是巴西柔术还是其他任何追求，什么才算是伟大的人生？ 是达到成就的巅峰，比如获得奥运金牌，展现出最高水平的表现吗？ 还是持续地取得成就，长期从事伟大的事业？ 我认为至少在美国社会，我们更倾向于后者。 我们希望人们健康、平衡，长期保持良好的状态。 也许还有一种类似于角斗士的价值观，认为只有达到巅峰才能定义你的人生。

John: You asked an initial question which, “What makes a great life?”, but then pointed towards two options, one of longevity versus are there, a degree of difficulty. There’s got to be a lot more than that shortly. I mean, think about, um, first of all, we have to understand from the start there’s never going to be an agreed-upon set of criteria for “this is a great life” from all perspective. Uh, if you look from the perspective of, say, Machiavelli, then Stalin lived a great life. He was highly successful at what he did. He started from nothing, so the degree of difficulty in what he did was extraordinarily high. He had massive impact upon world history. He oversaw the defeat of almost all of his major enemies. He lived to old age and died of natural causes. So from Machiavelli’s point of view, he had a great life. If you ask the Ukrainian farmer in the 1930s whether he lived a great life, you get a very different answer. So everything’s going to come from what perspective you, you begin with this. You’re going to look out at the world with a given point of view, and you’re going to make your judgments, “Was this a great life or was this a terrible life?”. Um, going back to your point, you were actually I think focusing the question on, on more in terms of, uh, great single performances versus longevity performances?

约翰: 你最初的问题是“什么才算是伟大的人生？”，然后你提出了两种选择：长寿和成就的难度。 当然，衡量伟大人生的标准远不止这些。 首先，我们必须明白，永远不可能找到一套 universally agreed upon 的标准来定义“伟大的人生”。 比如，从马基雅维利的角度来看，斯大林的人生无疑是伟大的。 他取得了巨大的成功，白手起家，克服了常人难以想象的困难，对世界历史产生了深远的影响，几乎所有主要对手都被他打败，他最终寿终正寝。 所以，在马基雅维利看来，斯大林的人生是伟大的。 但如果你去问 20 世纪 30 年代的乌克兰农民，他们对斯大林的评价肯定截然不同。 因此，对伟大人生的评判取决于你从哪个角度去看待问题。 你用什么样的视角去看待世界，就会做出什么样的判断。 回到你的问题，我认为你实际上是在比较一次性取得的伟大成就和长期持续的成就，对吗？

Lex: Yes. Presumably, this isn’t really a question about, uh, what makes a great life then, because there’s so much more than that to a great life.

莱克斯: 没错。 也许这个问题不应该局限于“伟大的人生”，因为伟大的人生包含的内容远不止这些。

John: I don’t know. I’m going to push back on that. So I think their parallels are very much closer than you’re making them seem. I think let’s compare Stalin. Stalin is an example of somebody who held power, considered by many to be one of the most powerful men ever. He held power for 30 years. So that’s what I’m referring to, longevity. And then there’s a few people, I have to, I wish my knowledge of history was better, but people who fought a few great battles, and they did not maintain power, but that’s this contrast here. For example, Alexander the Great.

约翰: 我不这么认为，我认为这两个问题之间的联系比你想象的要紧密得多。 我们以斯大林为例，他被认为是人类历史上最有权势的人之一，他掌权长达 30 年，这就是我所说的长寿。 当然，历史上也有一些人，他们虽然打赢了几场伟大的战役，但并没有长期掌权，比如亚历山大大帝。 我希望我对历史有更深入的了解，但我们可以用他们来进行对比。

Lex: Yes, who died at 33 um, from probably unnatural causes. Um, uh, had around four to five truly defining battles in his life which, uh, responsible for the, for the lion’s share of, of his achievements and burned very bright but didn’t burn long. Um, Stalin on the other hand started from nothing and quietly, methodically, worked his way through the revolutionary phase and, uh, gained increasing amounts of power and, as he said, um, went all the way to the end of her, uh, of his career. Um, yeah, there’s there’s definitely something to be said for, for longevity, um, but as to which one is greater than the other, you can’t give a a definition or, um, a set of criteria which will definitively say, “This is better than that.” But when you look ultimately, we look at Alexander as great, but in a different way, and we look at Stalin. I didn’t think many people would say Stalin was a great person, but from the Machiavellian point of view, he would say he was great, also.

莱克斯: 没错，亚历山大大帝 33 岁就英年早逝，而且很可能不是自然死亡。 他一生中大约经历了四五场决定性的战役，这些战役为他带来了巨大的成就。 他的人生就像一颗耀眼的流星，虽然光芒短暂，但却无比灿烂。 而斯大林则白手起家，在革命时期步步为营，稳扎稳打，最终获得了至高无上的权力，并将这种权力维持到生命的尽头。 长寿的确有其价值，但我们无法定义哪一种人生更伟大，也无法制定出一套标准来评判孰优孰劣。 虽然我们都认为亚历山大大帝是伟大的，但他的伟大与斯大林的伟大截然不同。 我认为，大多数人不会把斯大林称为伟人，但从马基雅维利的角度来看，他也会认为斯大林是伟大的。

Lex: But when you think about beautiful creations done by human beings in the space of say martial arts, in the space of sport, what inspires you? The peak of performance? I i see where you’re coming from. Like it’s a great question.

莱克斯: 但说到人类在武术或体育领域创造的那些精彩瞬间，是什么最让你感到震撼？ 是达到表现的巅峰吗？ 我理解你的意思，这是一个很好的问题。

John: Um, for me, it always comes down to degree of difficulty. But things are difficult in different ways. Okay, um, a single flawless performance in youth is still, that wins a gold medal. Let’s say for example, um, uh, Nadia Comăneci won the Olympic gold medal in gymnastics, the first person ever to get a perfect score. Um, if she had disappeared after that, we would still remember that as an incredible moment, and the degree of difficulty to, to get a perfect score in Olympic gymnastics is just off the charts. Um, and contrast that with someone who went to four Olympics and got four silver medals. I mean, they’re both incredible achievements. They’re just different. The, the attributes that lead to longevity, um, typically tend to conflict with the attributes that bring a powerful single performance. One is all about focus on, on a particular event. The other is, uh, on spreading your resources over time. Both, that present tremendous difficulties. There’s no need to say, “One is better than the other.”

约翰: 对我来说，衡量伟大的标准始终是取得成就的难度。 但难度的表现形式多种多样。 比如，在年轻时取得一次完美的成就，并因此获得奥运金牌，就像纳迪娅·科马内奇那样。 她是历史上第一个在奥运会体操比赛中获得满分的人。 即便在那之后销声匿迹，我们也会永远铭记那个不可思议的时刻，因为在奥运会体操比赛中获得满分的难度是难以想象的。 与之形成对比的是，有些人可能参加了四届奥运会，获得了四枚银牌。 这两种成就都令人惊叹，只是方式不同。 获得长期成功的特质往往与取得一次性辉煌成就的特质相冲突。 前者需要专注于特定的事件，而后者则需要将资源分散到更长的时间跨度上。 两者都充满挑战，我们没有必要去评判孰优孰劣。

Lex: There’s also just for me, personally, the stories of the, of somebody who truly struggled are are the most powerful. I know a bunch of people don’t necessarily agree because you said perfection. Perfection is kind of the antithesis of struggle, but I look at somebody. Okay, my own life. Somebody I, I’m a fan, oh, I’m a fan of everybody, I’m a huge fan of yours, I’m trying not to be nervous here, but uh, somebody I’m a fan of in the Judo world is Travis Stevens. He’s a remarkable fella, by the way, a remarkable human being. Insane in the best kinds of ways. I think I started Judo, I I really started martial arts, I have wrestled, if you consider those martial arts. That’s my, that’s been in my blood. I’m Russian, so but beyond that you know, the, the whole pajama thing we wear, the gi, I started by watching Travis in 2008 Olympics.

莱克斯: 就我个人而言，那些真正经历过苦难的人的故事最能打动我。 我知道有些人可能不认同这种观点，因为你刚才提到了“完美”。 完美似乎与苦难背道而驰，但对我来说并非如此。 比如，我非常崇拜柔道运动员特拉维斯·史蒂文斯，他是一个了不起的家伙，一个非凡的人，用最好的方式诠释了“疯狂”。 我从小就练习摔跤，如果也算武术的话，那它已经融入了我的血液。 我是俄罗斯人，所以骨子里就流淌着格斗的基因。 但说到我们穿的柔道服，我真正开始接触柔道，是因为观看了特拉维斯在 2008 年奥运会上的比赛。

John: Was that accidental? Did you know Travis prior to watching?

约翰: 你是偶然看到他的比赛吗？ 你之前认识特拉维斯吗？

Lex: No, no. I just tuned in.

莱克斯: 不认识，我只是碰巧看到了他的比赛。

John: Now, that’s an unusual choice. It was just random. You just tuned in and you saw Travis Stevens.

约翰: 这真是个不寻常的选择。 你是随机选的频道，然后就看到了特拉维斯·史蒂文斯。

Lex: I tuned into the Olympics and I was wondering what Judo is. And then s, I started watch, we’re, we’re all proud of our countries and so on, so I started watching. He was I think the only American in the Olympics for Judo, uh, maybe the, so this Kayla Harrison was 2012. And Ronda was there, too, so I watched Ronda and Travis, but obviously, sort of, I was, I was focused on somebody who also weighed the same as I did, so there was a kind of, I think 81 kilograms, so there’s a connection. But also there’s an intensity to him. Like he would get like angry at his own failures and he would just refuse to quit. It’s that kind of Dan Gable mentality, I just, that was inspiring to me, that he’s the underdog, and the way people talk about him, the commentators, that it was an unlikely person to do well right? And i, they, the, “fu” attitude behind that saying, “No, I’m going to still win gold.” Obviously, he didn’t do well in 2008, but that was the, that was somehow inspiring, and I just remember he pulled me in, but then I started to see this sport, I guess you can call it, of effortlessly dominating your opponent and like throwing, because i, in to me, wrestling was like a grind. You kind of control, you slowly just break your opponent. The idea that you could with like a foot sweep was fascinating to me, that just because of timing, you can take these like monsters, giant people, like incredible athletes, and just smash them with it. It just doesn’t, there was no struggle to it. It was always like a look of surprise. Judo dominance in Judo has a look, like the other person is like, “What? What just happened?”.

莱克斯: 当时我打开电视，正好是奥运会频道，我很好奇柔道是什么样的运动，于是就看了起来。 我们都会为自己的国家感到自豪，而特拉维斯应该是当时奥运会上唯一的美国柔道选手。 凯拉·哈里森参加的是 2012 年的奥运会，隆达·罗西也参加了那届奥运会。 我观看了隆达和特拉维斯的比赛，但我更关注特拉维斯，因为他的体重和我一样，都是 81 公斤，所以对他有一种莫名的亲近感。 而且他身上有一种强烈的斗志，他会因为自己的失败而愤怒，但绝不放弃。 他让我想起了丹·盖博，他们都有着永不言败的精神。 解说员都说他不被看好，但他却用行动证明了自己。 他身上那种“去他的”的态度，仿佛在说“我一定要赢得金牌”，深深地激励了我。 虽然他在 2008 年的奥运会上并没有取得好成绩，但他的精神深深地吸引了我。 我开始真正了解柔道，这项运动可以让你毫不费力地控制对手，并用各种投技将其摔倒。 我之前练习摔跤，那是一种需要不断消磨对手意志的运动。 而柔道只需要抓住时机，就能用一个简单的扫腿将那些强壮的对手摔倒在地，这让我感到无比震撼。 被摔倒的人脸上总是带着惊讶的表情，仿佛在问“发生了什么？”。 柔道中蕴含着一种独特的控制力，让人着迷。

John: Yes. This is very different from wrestling. It’s built into the rule structure, too. The whole idea of an ippon, of a match being over in an instant, and, um, that creates a, a thrilling spectator sport because you can, as you say, with O-soto-gari, or the foot sweeps, you can take someone out who’s heavily favored. And if you’re not, Judo is the most unforgiving of all the grappling sports. You can, if you have a lapse of concentration for half a second, it’s done, it’s over. Um, if those guys get a grip on each other any one of them can throw the other. The, the idea, you know, uh, when you see someone like, um, Nomura, who won three Olympic gold medals to, to win across three Olympics, and that’s an incredible achievement given how many ways there are to lose in the standing position in Judo, and how unforgiving it is as a sport, it shows an incredible level of dominance.

约翰: 没错，柔道和摔跤完全不同，它的规则设计也体现了这一点。 “一本” 的概念意味着比赛可能在一瞬间结束，这使得柔道成为一项扣人心弦的观赏性运动。 正如你所说，一个不被看好的人可以用大外刈或扫腿等技术，将实力强大的对手瞬间击败。 柔道是所有格斗运动中最残酷的，只要你稍微分心半秒钟，就可能输掉比赛。 柔道比赛中，双方只要抓住对方，任何一方都可能将对方摔倒。 比如野村忠宏，他获得了三枚奥运金牌，这意味着他在三届奥运会上都取得了胜利。 考虑到柔道站立技术中存在着如此多的失败可能性，以及这项运动的残酷性，他的成就足以证明他在柔道领域拥有着不可思议的统治力。

Lex: I think when I was, I was also introduced at that time to the idea, Jessica Judo, I think in Jiu-Jitsu is the same. A lot of sports is probably the same is there’s ways to win that include kind of, um, if I were to use a bad term, “stalling,” which is like use strategy to slow down to destroy all the weapons your opponent has and just to wait it out to sort of break your opponent by,

莱克斯: 我当时也接触到一种叫做“杰西卡柔道”的理念，我认为巴西柔术中也存在类似的情况。 很多体育项目都是如此，存在着一些取巧的获胜方式，比如用一些策略来拖延时间，化解对手的进攻，并最终通过消耗战来拖垮对手。 虽然用“拖延”这个词不太恰当，但我一时也想不出更合适的词来形容。

John: Yeah. Shutting down all their weapons, but not using any of your own.

约翰: 没错，就是完全压制对手的进攻，自己却不主动出击。

Lex: Yes. And now Travis was always going for, he’s of, course really good at gripping and con to that whole game, but he was going for the big throws, and he was almost getting frustrated, uh, by a lot of the opponents. I remember, uh, Ole Bischof, I think.

莱克斯: 没错，特拉维斯总是积极主动地进攻，他当然也精通抓握和控制比赛的技巧，但他更喜欢用强有力的投技来赢得比赛，所以经常会被那些消极比赛的对手搞得很沮丧。 我记得奥勒·比朔夫就是这样的对手。

John: Yes. Uh, from Germany.

约翰: 没错，他来自德国。

Lex: From Germany. Very talented, very incredible. I know he’s very good at doing big throws, and he’s incredible judoka, but he was also incredible at just frustrating his opponents with like gripping and strategy and so on. And I just remember feeling the pain of this person, like Travis, who went through just, he broke like every part of his body. He went through so many injuries. Just this person who dedicated his entire life to this moment in 2008, and then 2012, and in 2016 just ever gave everything. You could see it on his face that you know, his weapons are being shut down and he’s still pushing forward. He’s still with that both the frustration and the power. I mean, the, the, the kind of throw he does is the, his, his main one I think is the standing, it was called Seoi-nage. Keep on saying, “I can hit pause.”

莱克斯: 他来自德国，非常有天赋，是一位非常优秀的柔道运动员。 我知道他很擅长各种强有力的投技，但他更擅长用抓握和战术来瓦解对手的进攻，让对手感到 frustrated。 我至今还记得特拉维斯当时的那种痛苦。 他为了 2008 年的奥运会，以及之后的 2012 年和 2016 年奥运会，付出了难以想象的努力，几乎全身的骨头都断过，经历了无数的伤病。 你可以从他的脸上看到那种不甘和 determination。 他的进攻一次又一次地被对手化解，但他仍然在努力向前，坚持进攻。 他最擅长的投技是站立背负投。 （莱克斯对约翰说） 你可以随时打断我。

John: That was, that was the other thing is like the techniques he used was the, these big throws that, there’s something to me about the Seoi-nage. I fell in love with that throw. Uh, that’s my become my main throw, standing Seoi-nage. That is like, why do, why do you favor the standing variation? Because of the amplitude? You get a more powerful, yeah.

约翰: 没错，他使用的都是强有力的投技。 我对背负投情有独钟，它后来也成为我最擅长的投技，尤其是站立背负投。 你为什么更喜欢站立的变化？ 是因为它的投技幅度更大，更有力量吗？

Lex: Power. It’s like, are you a fan of Koga?

莱克斯: 是因为力量。 你喜欢古贺稔彦吗？

John: Yes.

约翰: 是的，我很喜欢他。

Lex: That’s so, that’s why Travis. So Koga and Travis opened up my, uh, Travis uses the same gripping patterns for Seoi-nage. I guess all the same and the way he uses his hips and turns and I remember like going to my Judo club and other Judo clubs and ask and they’re all saying, “This is the wrong way to do it.” The way Travis does is the wrong way to do it. And I remember like I’ve always been amazed by this, by the way. I don’t mean to cut you off, but i i could literally fill 20 hours of reproductions of people who will tell me that either my students or other great world champions, um, are doing things wrong. Yeah, and I’m, I’m looking at them and I’m like, “Who would I rather trust here in, in their judgment, Koga, who was one of the greatest throwers of all time, or you, a recreational guy who couldn’t throw my grandmother?” Yes. Um, uh, “I’m supposed to take your word over his?” Well, say, “Don’t listen to what people say. I’m going to give you a piece of advice here: watch what the best people do.” Okay. That’s how you get superior athletic performance. I’m going to say that again: don’t listen to what people say, watch what they do, particularly under the stress of high-level competition, because that’s when you see their real game. What they really do under pressure. Okay? And if you can emulate that, you’re going to be very successful. I guess what I was frustrated with, to your point is that the argument against Koga is what he has a very specific body type, and he figured out something that worked for him. Thus the statement is that might not be applicable to you, or to the general public of, of uh, Judo players that want to succeed. That, by the way, at the shallow level, might be true.

莱克斯: 所以特拉维斯也是这样做的。 古贺稔彦和特拉维斯让我对柔道有了更深入的理解。 特拉维斯在背负投中使用的抓握方式和古贺稔彦完全一样，包括使用臀部和转身的方式。 我曾经去过很多柔道俱乐部，向其他人请教，他们都说我的做法是错的，特拉维斯的做法也是错的。 顺便说一句，我总是对这种现象感到惊讶。 我无意打断你，但可以毫不夸张地说，很多人都会告诉我，我的学生或者其他世界冠军的技术是错的，我可以连续说上 20 个小时。 我真的很想问他们：“我应该相信谁的判断，是有史以来最伟大的投技手之一的古贺稔彦，还是你，一个连我祖母都摔不动的业余爱好者？” 我为什么要相信你的话，而不是相信他的话？ 我想给你们一个建议：不要听别人怎么说，要看最优秀的人是怎么做的。 这就是取得卓越运动成绩的秘诀。 我再说一遍，不要听别人怎么说，要看他们是怎么做的，尤其是在高水平比赛的压力下，因为只有在那样的情况下，你才能看到他们的真实水平，看到他们在压力下如何应对。 如果你能模仿他们的做法，你也会取得成功。 回到你刚才的观点，那些反对古贺稔彦的人认为，他的技术只适用于他那样的特殊体型，并不具有普适性。 他们认为，古贺稔彦的技术可能不适用于你，也不适用于其他想要取得成功的柔道运动员。 从某种程度上来说，他们的说法可能是对的。

John: Might be true. The point is,

约翰: 他们的说法也许有道理。 但关键是，

Lex: There might be a body of knowledge that’s yet to be discovered and explored that Koga opened up that I wanted to understand why his technique worked. It made no sense to me that with a single foot, like the way you turn the hip, the single foot that steps in, why does that work? Because it was actually very difficult to make work. Uh, for me, as a white belt in the very beginning, it doesn’t make sense like people just, they don’t, they don’t get loaded up onto your hip.

莱克斯: 古贺稔彦的技术可能开启了一个尚未被发现和探索的知识领域，我想弄明白他的技术为什么有效。 我无法理解的是，为什么只用一只脚，用那种转动臀部的方式，就能把对手摔倒？ 我刚开始练习柔道的时候，只是一个白带，我完全无法理解其中的原理。 我感觉对手根本不会被带到我的臀部上。

John: Anyway, for people who don’t watch Koga highlights, watch Travis Stevens highlights. But,

约翰: 总之，如果你没有看过古贺稔彦的精彩集锦，可以去看特拉维斯·史蒂文斯的精彩集锦。 但是，

Lex: The, the details of the technique don’t make sense, but when mastered that, it feels like there’s something fundamental there that hasn’t been explored yet. It’s like Koga and Travis made me think that we don’t know most of the body mechanics involved in dominance in Judo, like we just kind of found a few pockets that work really well. The Uchi Mata. There’s these different throws. Also, I wonder if there’s like totally cool new things that we haven’t discovered. And that’s Seoi-nage. I gave a little peek because there’s very few people that I’m aware of that do it the way Travis and Koga did. May I ask you a question?

莱克斯: 虽然我无法理解这项技术的细节，但当我掌握了它之后，我感觉其中蕴含着一些尚未被探索的基本原理。 古贺稔彦和特拉维斯让我意识到，我们对柔道中那些能够主导比赛的身体力学原理知之甚少，只是发现了一些非常有效的技巧，比如内股和其他一些投技。 我很好奇是否还有其他尚未被我们发现的新技术，就像背负投一样。 据我所知，很少有人能像特拉维斯和古贺稔彦那样使用背负投，所以我对这种技术非常着迷。 我可以问你一个问题吗？

John: Yes.

约翰: 当然可以。

Lex: Um, the choice of standing Seoi-nage, um, i i should, uh, say this for you, for your listeners. They’re probably thinking, “What the hell are these two guys talking about?” Um, uh, Seoi-nage is one of the more high-percentage throws in the Olympic sport of Judo. Um, probably uh, Uchi Mata is probably number one, and variations of Seoi-nage would be in the top five for sure. Um, the basic choice you have in modern competition is the more difficult standing, where you literally are up on your feet and you perform a shoulder throw that takes your opponent over from a full standing position. The most popular form of Seoi-nage in modern competition by a landslide is not the standing version, it’s a drop Seoi-nage, where you go down to your knees. Um, this means you have a much easier time getting underneath your opponent’s center of gravity. The defining feature of any Seoi-nage is getting underneath your opponent’s center of gravity and lifting them. That “seo” literally means to, to lift and carry. Why did you choose the more difficult version? What was your motivation? You know, you’re a smart kid, you know right from the start that for every standing Seoi-nage there’s 20 drop Seoi-nages in modern competition. One is obviously more high-percentage, one obviously works for a wider variety of body types, uh, the number of people who are successful with standing Seoi-nage is dramatically lower, and it appears to be a move which is completely absent in the heavyweight divisions, and rarely seen in the lightweight divisions. Why? What was the motivation? Why did you willingly adopt the less high percentage over the, this would be very interesting percentage. I i, I would love you to break it apart because, um, I apply the same kind of thinking to basically everything. I mentioned you offline, there’s these Boston Dynamics Spot robots. When I first met Spot, I found love. I don’t understand what exactly, but there’s magic there, and I just got excited by it. And that, met, that fire burns. I want to work these robots, I want to work with robots, I want to, I felt like there’s something special there that I could build something interesting with, create something interesting with. And the same with, with the same standing Seoi-nage from Koga and Travis, I just fell in love with that technique, just even watching. I didn’t even know what the hell to do with it.

莱克斯: 说到选择站立背负投，我得先解释一下，免得听众一头雾水，不知道我们在说什么。 背负投是奥运会柔道比赛中成功率较高的投技之一，可能仅次于内股，而且各种背负投的变化肯定都能排进前五。 在现代柔道比赛中，背负投主要有两种形式：一种是难度更高的站立背负投，你需要完全站立，用肩膀将完全站立的对手投出去；另一种是更常见的屈膝背负投，你需要跪下来完成投技。 屈膝背负投更容易将身体移到对手重心下方，而所有背负投的关键都在于进入对手重心下方并将其抬起。 “背负” 的字面意思就是抬起和扛起。 我很好奇你为什么选择难度更高的站立背负投？ 你的动机是什么？ 你应该知道，在现代柔道比赛中，屈膝背负投的使用频率远远高于站立背负投，而且前者显然成功率更高，适用于更多种体型。 能够成功使用站立背负投的人少之又少，而且这种技术在重量级比赛中几乎绝迹，在轻量级比赛中也很少见。 你为什么要主动选择成功率更低的站立背负投呢？ 我很想听听你的分析，因为我习惯于把这种思考方式运用到所有事情上。 我私下里跟你提到过波士顿动力公司的 Spot 机器人，当我第一次见到 Spot 时，就对它一见钟情。 我说不清为什么，但我感觉它身上有一种魔力，让我无比兴奋。 我想要操作这些机器人，想要和它们一起工作，想要用它们创造出一些有趣的东西。 我对站立背负投也是如此，古贺稔彦和特拉维斯的站立背负投让我深深着迷，即使只是观看视频，我也能感受到它的魅力。 虽然我当时甚至不知道该如何使用这项技术，但我就是喜欢它。

John: Was it aesthetic?

约翰: 是因为它看起来很美吗？

Lex: It’s the standing Seoi-nage, I guess, more beautiful in execution. There’s no engine, in, in my own, let’s, we’re talking about love here, right? In my own definition of aesthetic. Yes, it’s not just beauty because you could argue there’s more elegance, sort of, Uchi Mata is very beautiful and effortless. I love, I love something about the dominance of it. I love the idea in sport of two people that are the best in the world and one of them dominating the other. And, uh, to me, the standing Seoi-nage, you’re lifted off your feet and especially when it’s done perfectly and with really strong resistance from the other person it results in a big slam, and that was like beautiful to me. That’s the, uh, Alexander Karelin and like big pickups, I love that.

莱克斯: 我认为站立背负投在执行上更漂亮，它不仅仅是美，因为内股也同样优美流畅，但我更喜欢站立背负投的控制力。 就像我们在谈论“爱”一样，每个人对美的定义都不一样。 我喜欢那种一个人完全压制另一个人的感觉。 在体育比赛中，当两个世界上最优秀的人相遇时，一方能够完全压制另一方，这让我感到无比兴奋。 站立背负投会把对手完全 lifted off their feet，尤其是当技术完美无瑕，并且对手拼尽全力抵抗时，最终将对手重重地摔在地板上，那种感觉太美妙了。 就像亚历山大·卡雷林那样，我喜欢那种将对手高高举起并重重摔下的感觉。

John: It’s interesting, though, it’s, you’re correct insofar as you, you’re not just going with aesthetic in the sense of beauty but also, but you are making uh, as it were, value judgments. Yes, about the throw and that’s fascinating to me, um, because there’s two elements to any grappling sport. I’ve always, I’m always, um, insistent upon the idea that Jiu-Jitsu is both an art and a science. Okay? It has scientific elements insofar as it works according to the laws of physics and lever and fulcrum, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but it also has an aesthetic element, insofar as you’re making choices with technique. You’re expressing who you are as a person. You have 10,000 different variations of moves you could use, but you’re specifically choosing these. That’s an element of choice and self-expression on your part. And insofar as that is true, combat sports are not just a size, but they’re also an art. So most combat sports have this sense which they, have the features of both an art and a science. And, um, it’s not just about high percentage. In, in your case, I mean, me personally, I’m obsessed with percentages. What, what are the ways to make science, yeah.

约翰: 有趣的是，你对技术的偏好不仅仅是出于审美，而是包含了价值判断。 这让我很感兴趣，因为任何格斗运动都包含着两个要素。 我始终认为，巴西柔术既是一门艺术，也是一门科学。 它具有科学性，因为它遵循物理定律，利用杠杆和支点等原理来运作。 但它也具有艺术性，因为你在选择技术时，就是在表达你自己的个性。 你有成千上万种技术可以选择，但你最终只选择了一部分，这是你主动做出的选择，是自我表达的一种方式。 从这个角度来说，格斗运动不仅是一项竞技，也是一门艺术。 所以，大多数格斗运动都同时具有艺术和科学的特征。 这不仅仅是追求技术的成功率，虽然我个人非常重视成功率，总是想要用科学的方法来提高成功率。

Lex: But that’s also choices involved.

莱克斯: 但这其中也包含着选择。

John: Yeah. But, um, but there is an undeniably aesthetic element to martial arts where you, as it were, express who you are as a person in terms of the techniques you’re ultimately going to choose.

约翰: 的确如此，但武术中不可否认地存在着审美元素，你最终选择的技术也是你个人特质的一种体现。

Lex: Does that get in the way? Do you allow yourself to enjoy the aesthetic beauty of a technique?

莱克斯: 这种审美偏好会影响你的判断吗？ 你会让自己沉浸在技术的优美之中吗？

John: Of course.

约翰: 当然会。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 好的。

John: When I, when martial arts have done well, it’s the most beautiful sport in the world. Okay? When it’s done poorly, it’s the ugliest. But, but a beautifully applied submission hold, a perfect throw, a a superbly set up takedown are among the most difficult techniques to execute in all of sports, and when they’re done well, they’re magic to observe.

约翰: 当武术被完美地展现出来时，它是世界上最美的运动；但如果做得不好，它也是最丑陋的。 一个干净利落的降服技、一个完美的投技、一个精心设计的抱摔，这些都是所有运动项目中最难的技术动作。 当它们被完美地执行出来时，就像魔法一样令人着迷。

Lex: But do you, uh, prefer certain techniques over others because of their, like for example I’ll tell you for me, chokes of all sorts, with the gi, without the gi, probably with the gi is the most beautiful to me, personally.

莱克斯: 但你会因为某些技术看起来更美而偏爱它们吗？ 比如，我个人就非常喜欢各种各样的勒颈技术，无论是有道服还是无道服，但我更喜欢有道服的。

John: I, i value them above all others. Um, people mostly associate myself and my students with leg locking. They’re usually rather surprised to learn that I actually value strangleholds far above leg locks, um, but not for aesthetic reasons, for effectiveness. We can talk about that later a few wish, well, let’s step back. Sorry, we drifted awfully far off topic, man.

约翰: 我也认为勒颈技是最重要的技术。 人们通常把我和我的学生与腿锁联系在一起，但他们可能不知道，我实际上更重视勒颈技，这并不是出于审美原因，而是因为它的有效性。 我们以后可以再讨论这个问题。 不好意思，我们刚才扯远了。

Lex: This is, with, I think this is beautiful. Uh, we’re drifting along the river of, uh, life and martial arts. Can you explain the fundamentals of Jiu-Jitsu?

莱克斯: 没关系，我觉得这样很好，我们就像在生命和武术的长河中自由地漂流。 你能解释一下巴西柔术的基本原理吗？

John: Yes. If I couldn’t I wouldn’t be much of a coach. Um, Jiu-Jitsu is an art and science which looks to use a combination of tactical and mechanical advantage to focus a very high percentage of my strength against a very low percentage of my opponent’s strength at a critical point on their body, such that if I were to exert my strength upon that critical point, they could no longer continue to fight.

约翰: 当然可以，如果我连这都解释不清楚，那也算不上是一个合格的教练。 巴西柔术既是一门艺术，也是一门科学，它试图通过战术和机械优势的结合，将我大部分力量集中在对手身上的某个关键部位，对抗对手极少部分的力量，从而让对手无法继续战斗。

Lex: Well, that’s about weapons and defenses. But then is there something more to be said about the set of tools that are, that we’re talking about?

莱克斯: 你说的主要是进攻和防守。 那么，关于我们正在讨论的这些技术，还有什么需要补充的吗？

John: That’s an overall definition of Jiu-Jitsu, of being a set of choices that where you’re using the things you’re powerful in versus the things your opponent is weak in.

约翰: 这就是我对巴西柔术的整体定义，它是一系列的选择，你需要利用自己的优势去攻击对手的弱点。

Lex: No, I was only talking about percentages of body strength. If I have, for example, let’s say, um, we have two athletes, athlete A and athlete B. Athlete A has 100 units of strength, however we define that overall. Athlete B has 50. Okay. So ostensibly athlete A is twice as strong as athlete B. But athlete B can maneuver his body into a set of positions, focused around a critical point of his opponent’s body, where he can apply 40 units of strength out of his total of 50. His opponent can only defend with 20 units of strength out of his total of 100. You have now completely reversed the strength discrepancy. Originally, athlete A was twice as strong as B. Now, on that one localized point, the knee, the elbow, the neck, B is now twice as strong as A. Under those circumstances, B should win.

莱克斯: 不，我指的是力量的比例。 比如，有两个运动员，A 和 B。 A 的力量是 100 个单位，B 的力量是 50 个单位，所以 A 的力量是 B 的两倍。 但 B 可以通过技术动作，将身体移动到一系列有利的位置，将 40 个单位的力量（占其总力量的 80%）集中在 A 身体上的某个关键部位。 而 A 只能用 20 个单位的力量（占其总力量的 20%）来防守。 这样一来，力量对比就完全逆转了。 原本 A 的力量是 B 的两倍，但现在在那个关键部位，B 的力量变成了 A 的两倍。 在这种情况下，B 应该会获胜。

I guess what I’m trying to get at, by the way that’s really beautifully said, is what you just said could be applied to other games, other battles. It could be applied to the game of chess. Uh, it could be applied to war, most obviously in war. I think about for example, um, the American strategic bombing campaign in World War II. The Eighth Army Air Force was tasked with the idea of destroying German industry. Did they attack all of German industry? Of course not. That would be stupid. They attacked the ball bearing industry. Why? Because almost all of modern machines require ball bearings in order to operate, in order for the mechanical interfaces of machines to operate, you have to reduce friction. It’s done through ball bearings. If you knocked out one tiny component of German industry, the ball bearing industry, the rest of it couldn’t operate. So, too, with the human body. I didn’t have to fight your whole body, I just have to fight your left knee. If I can break your left knee, the rest of your body is irrelevant to me.

莱克斯: 你刚才的解释非常精彩。 我想说的是，你所描述的这种力量对比的逆转，不仅适用于巴西柔术，也适用于其他领域，比如国际象棋和战争。 就拿二战期间美国的战略轰炸行动来说，第八航空队被赋予了摧毁德国工业的任务。 他们当然不会攻击所有的德国工业，那样做太愚蠢了。 他们选择攻击滚珠轴承工业，因为几乎所有现代机器都需要滚珠轴承才能运转，要想减少机器运转过程中的摩擦，就必须使用滚珠轴承。 如果摧毁了这个小小的产业，整个德国工业都会陷入瘫痪。 人体也是如此，我不用攻击你全身，只需要攻击你的左膝。 如果你的左膝被我折断，你身体的其他部位就对我构不成威胁了。

John: But then, isn’t the art of Jiu-Jitsu discovering the left knee? The, discovering the weak points?

约翰: 所以说，巴西柔术的艺术就在于找到对手的“左膝”，找到他们的弱点，对吗？

Lex: You know, a huge part of Jiu-Jitsu is understanding the weak, strengths and weaknesses, of the human body. There’s parts of the human body that are shockingly robust, and there are other parts that are shockingly vulnerable. The major joints, and of course the most vulnerable of all, the unprotected neck. So if we take the something I’m not familiar with, but I was incredibly impressed by, is the body lock that I saw, um, Nick Rodriguez, Nick Rodriguez used last time a few weeks ago, but then I also got to hang out with Craig Jones, who also has a very good body lock. So that, that was, uh, I don’t know if this body lock applies to all positions, but I was seeing it from when Craig is, uh, on top of your opponent and trying to pass the go, or passing the guard, used the body lock as a controlling position.

莱克斯: 没错，巴西柔术的很大一部分在于了解人体的弱点和强项。 有些部位异常强壮，而有些部位则异常脆弱，比如主要的关节，以及最脆弱的、毫无保护的颈部。 说到弱点，我最近对抱摔锁非常感兴趣。 我看到尼克·罗德里格斯在几周前的比赛中使用了抱摔锁，后来我又和克雷格·琼斯一起训练，他的抱摔锁技术也炉火纯青。 我不确定抱摔锁是否适用于所有情况，但我看到克雷格在压制对手并试图穿过防守时，经常使用抱摔锁来控制对手。

John: The, the principle behind it is that it shuts down, as you’ve spoken about, it shuts down the weapons of a very strong opponent. That’s absolutely correct. In the case of, um, guard possession. What makes guard position dangerous? What makes someone a powerful guard player? Is the movement of their hips, forward and backward and side to side. Body locking is designed to shut down that movement and does a very fine job of it. You’ll see all of my students, accelerate Gordon Ryan is probably the single best body lock guard passer I’ve ever seen. Nikki Ryan is outstanding with it. Nick Rodriguez is very good. Craig Jones is outstanding. All of my students use this for a very simple reason: understand what is the central problem of shutting down a dangerous guard player. It’s his hips. That’s what makes him a dangerous leg locker. You go up against a dangerous leg locker, body lock guard pass, single best way to shut down most of his entries. Um, we’re all strong in leg locks, so in our gym, you gotta control the hips as soon as possible. These, can otherwise, can be a very difficult thing to avoid, leg entanglements as you go to parts. And across the board, my students excel in in, uh, in body lock guard passing. They understand what’s the most dangerous feature their opponent has: the lateral movement of their hips. What’s the single best way to stop that? Body lock. And then work from there.

约翰: 抱摔锁的原理就在于，它可以限制对手的行动，就像你说的，它可以封锁那些强壮对手的进攻武器。 这在防守中非常重要。 是什么让防守变得危险？ 是什么让防守者变得强大？ 是臀部的灵活移动，包括前后和左右的移动。 抱摔锁就是为了限制这种移动而设计的，而且效果非常好。 你会发现我所有的学生都精通抱摔锁技术，尤其是戈登·瑞恩，他可能是我见过的最擅长使用抱摔锁来突破防守的人。 尼基·瑞恩在这方面也很出色，尼克·罗德里格斯和克雷格·琼斯也非常擅长抱摔锁。 我的学生都使用这种技术，原因很简单：他们都知道，要瓦解一个强大的防守者，关键在于控制他的臀部。 灵活的臀部移动也是腿锁技术的关键，要想对抗腿锁高手，抱摔锁是最好的防守策略，它可以有效地封锁大部分腿锁进攻。 我们都擅长腿锁技术，所以在我们道馆的训练中，必须尽快控制对手的臀部，否则在进入缠斗阶段时，就很难避免被对手的腿锁技术缠住。 总的来说，我的学生在使用抱摔锁突破防守方面都非常出色，因为他们明白，对手最危险的武器就是臀部的横向移动，而阻止这种移动的最佳方式就是抱摔锁。

Lex: So if this asymmetry of power is fundamental to Jiu-Jitsu, how do you discover that? How do you, how did you discover the body lock that, as a, as one of many methodologies of achieving this asymmetry?

莱克斯: 所以，既然这种力量的不对称性是巴西柔术的精髓，那你是如何发现它的呢？ 你是如何发现抱摔锁这种能够创造力量不对称性的技术呢？

John: Um, it would be an overstatement to say we discovered the body lock, right? Body lock passing has been around longer than we’ve been around. Um, but what I would say is that in a room full of dangerous leg lockers, you’ve got to have a way to shut down the hips. And so, once we started using body locks, we saw that was one excellent way to get around that problem. As with all development, it comes from trial and error. You will often see people teach the technique to a certain level, and you see the teaching, you know, there’s a lot of inadequacies there, and that doesn’t cover a lot of the problems that we’re encountering. And so, trial and error is the single most important part of the development.

约翰: 当然，说我们“发明”了抱摔锁太过夸张了，这种技术早就存在了。 我只是想说，在一个到处都是腿锁高手的地方，你必须找到一种方法来控制对手的臀部。 所以，当我们开始使用抱摔锁时，发现它能够很好地解决这个问题。 任何技术的进步都离不开反复试验。 你会发现，很多教练在教授技术时，都会存在一些不足，无法解决我们在实战中遇到的所有问题。 所以，反复试验是技术进步的关键。

Lex: Trial and error in, um, in the training room amongst yourselves, in, in hard training? Or,

莱克斯: 所以你们是在训练中，在实战对抗中，通过反复试验来改进技术的，对吗？

John: No, it never begins with hard training. Or, everything, techniques are born the same way we’re born: weak and in need of nutrition. Uh, you have to, like this, build them up organically, like children. And you start with minimal resistance, and you make progress over time. When you first go to the gym, do you put 500 pounds on the bench press and try to bench press it? No, you’ll be killed. You start off with the bar, you build over time, and then one day, five years from now perhaps you really are lifting 500 pounds. But only a fool would attempt that on their first attempt.

约翰: 当然不是从一开始就进行高强度的训练。 所有的技术，就像新生儿一样，最初都是脆弱的，需要不断地“补充营养”。 你需要像养育孩子一样，循序渐进地培养它们。 你应该从最小的阻力开始练习，慢慢地取得进步。 你第一次去健身房的时候，会直接尝试举起 500 磅的重量吗？ 当然不会，你会被压死的。 你应该从空杠铃开始，逐渐增加重量，也许五年后你真的可以举起 500 磅，但只有傻瓜才会在第一次尝试时就挑战极限。

Lex: And they’re born like children in your mind first. Like, uh, there’s a spark of another one. It’s like scientific development on a subject matter which is intrinsically simpler. Okay? There’s a sense in which naive and overly simplistic assessments of scientific method may not work well at advanced levels of science, but they work damn well in the training room with Jiu-Jitsu, whether the subject matter is inherently simpler than it is in research science. And as a result, there’ll be a spark. You’ll see something right? And there’s possibilities there. Okay? Let’s, let’s puzzle this out. Let’s work with this. And, uh, you run into a lot of failures this, you know, you’ve suddenly been, “Oh, man, if I put my hip this way, this works really well.” Then suddenly you try and spar, and you get caught in a simple Americana, and you know, “Okay, that didn’t work as well as I thought.” And then you look to rectify things. If things go on promising research directions, you keep them. If not, you discard them.

莱克斯: 这些技术就像孩子一样，首先诞生在你的脑海中，就像灵光乍现一样。 这就像是对一个本质上更简单的课题进行科学研究。 那些简单粗暴的科学方法可能不适用于复杂的科学研究，但在巴西柔术训练中却非常有效，因为巴西柔术的本质比科学研究要简单得多。 所以你会产生一些想法，看到一些可能性，然后你会尝试去解决问题，去实践它。 你会经历很多失败，比如你突然发现“如果我把臀部放在这个位置，效果会很好”，但在实战中你却因为一个简单的 Americana 被对手降服，你意识到“这个技术并没有我想象的那么有效”，然后你就会去改进它。 如果技术改进的方向是正确的，你就会继续坚持下去；如果方向是错误的，你就会放弃它。

John: Well, it’s funny you say “science,” it feels like more like art. There’s somebody I really admire that talks about this kind of ideas, Jony Ive from Apple. He’s the lead designer. He recently left, but he was the designer behind most of the products we know and loved from Apple.

约翰: 你说到“科学”，这很有趣，因为我觉得这个过程更像是艺术创作。 我非常欣赏苹果公司的乔纳森·艾维，他也是这样看待设计。 他是苹果公司的首席设计师，虽然最近离开了公司，但他曾经是我们熟知和喜爱的许多苹果产品背后的设计师。

Lex: And when you say “designer,” be more precise, what exactly was he? Was he working on in Apple the iPhone? Which, which parts of the iPhone did he, would like the entirety of it? Was he a leader of a research team or was he the person personally responsible for their development?

莱克斯: 你说的“设计师”是指什么？ 他具体负责哪些工作？ 他是设计 iPhone 的吗？ 是指 iPhone 的哪个部分，还是整体设计？ 他是领导一个研究团队，还是独自负责产品开发？

John: He’s kind of, I would say, very similar to your position. He wasn’t necessarily the last, the person executing the fine, the manufacture, right?

约翰: 我觉得他和你现在的角色很像，他不是负责最终生产制造的人，对吧？

Lex: Yeah, of course.

莱克斯: 是的，当然。

John: But there’s the, uh, he’s somebody that’s very hands-on. And it’s, it’s like, okay, so he worked obviously extremely close to Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs has this idea: we should have a computer that’s as thin as a sheet of paper. And then you start to play with ideas of like, what does that actually look like? The reason I bring it up is because he talked about he had these ideas that he would not tell Steve because he, he talked about in the same exact language as you’re saying, is there’s like, like a little baby that it’s very fragile. It, it needs time to grow.

约翰: 但他是一个非常注重实践的人。 他与史蒂夫·乔布斯的工作关系非常密切。 乔布斯的想法是，我们要制造一台像纸一样薄的电脑。 然后他们就开始 brainstorming，思考如何将这个想法变成现实。 我之所以提到他，是因为他也说过，他有一些想法最初不会告诉乔布斯，因为他认为那些想法就像新生儿一样脆弱，需要时间去成长。 他的说法和你刚才的描述如出一辙。

Lex: Absolutely. And then Steve Jobs would often roll in.

莱克斯: 没错，而乔布斯经常会突然插手进来。

John: Was too ruthless.

约翰: 而且太无情了。

Lex: You’re too ruthless.

莱克斯: 你会毫不留情地否定它们。

John: This is, he would destroy ideas because, uh, Jony Ive and the team didn’t have actually good responses to the criticism at first, because when they’re babies, you can’t defend the baby. Uh, but you needed time to develop, you need to sleep on it, you need to rethink it, to do dream things and all those kinds of things.

约翰: 他会扼杀那些想法，因为乔纳森·艾维和他的团队在想法的初期阶段，无法有效地回应乔布斯的批评。 就像新生儿一样，他们无力为自己辩护。 他们需要时间去完善想法，需要反复思考，甚至在梦中去寻找灵感。

Lex: It’s fascinating you say this, Lex, because this is actually the entire history of scientific development is literally the story of the juxtaposition between the need to protect and nurture new theories versus the need to rigorously test them with, with harsh testing that either verifies them or falsifies them. And learning to find a satisfactory compromise between those two is a very, very difficult thing. When you look at the history of science, you will see that there’s some pretty damn chaotic moments anytime there’s major theory change where all kinds of apparently, um, uh, undesirable tricks they use to protect certain theories with ad hoc hypotheses, etc, etc, and, uh, and ultimately only time and success over time will justify a theory. There’s usually a period where when one theory goes into replace another there’s something of a battle between competing uh, groups of scientists, some of whom advocate theory A, some who advocate theory B. They often use seemingly unscrupulous methods to protect or attack another person’s theory. They dig for proofs, and usually some period of time has to go by, sometimes in some cases it simply involved older scientists protecting an initial theory dying off and new scientists just replacing them with numbers. And this is a common, common theme. And the same applies in Jiu-Jitsu. You know, so many times, especially when I first started working with leg locks I would show things I had worked on to even world champion black belts, they would try it once or twice, and fail, be like, “It doesn’t work.” And we’re like, “You tried it once on it, on another guy who’s also a world champion, who has a strong ability to resist it, and that’s it, no more, it doesn’t work.” And then uh, five years later they would see my students finishing world champions with it, and in some cases finishing the very people who said that the technique would never work. I mean, if there was ever a refutation of a statement, that that’s a pretty clear example. Um, and there has to be a sense in which you, you can’t be too forgiving, you have to test hypotheses, but on the other hand, you can’t be too ruthless either. You have to look for, uh, promise and, and uh, my advice is: start slow. Like again, the analogy of lifting weights. You don’t lift the heaviest weights on your first day, you build up, you work progressively over time. Um, now, you also have to have some common sense here. You can’t be too forgiving to a technique. If it’s repeatedly failing then, and good people have tried it, and multiple good people have tried it, and it’s just not working out, then okay, it’s time to dismiss it. But don’t be too quick, you know.

莱克斯: 你刚才的比喻很有意思，因为这实际上就是科学发展的历史，是保护和培养新理论的需要与对其进行严格检验的需要之间不断博弈的过程。 找到两者之间的平衡点非常困难。 纵观科学史，你会发现，每当有重大理论更迭时，都会出现一些混乱的局面。 为了维护自己的理论，科学家们会使用各种各样看似不光彩的手段，比如提出一些 ad hoc 的假设。 最终，只有时间和经得起时间检验的成功才能证明一个理论的正确性。 当一个理论取代另一个理论时，通常会伴随着支持不同理论的科学家群体之间的激烈争论。 他们会用各种方法来捍卫自己的理论，或者攻击对方的理论，不断地寻找证据来证明自己的观点。 有时，新理论的最终确立，仅仅是因为那些维护旧理论的科学家们逐渐老去，被支持新理论的新一代科学家们所取代。 这在科学发展史上是一个非常普遍的现象，在巴西柔术领域也是如此。 我记得我刚开始研究腿锁技术的时候，曾经把我的研究成果展示给一些世界冠军级别的黑带，他们尝试了一两次就放弃了，说“这个技术没用”。 我会反驳说：“你只是在一个同样是世界冠军，并且非常擅长防守的人身上尝试了一两次，就说它没用，这未免太武断了。” 五年后，他们会看到我的学生用这项技术击败了世界冠军，甚至击败了那些曾经断言这项技术永远不会成功的人。 如果说有什么能够反驳他们的观点，这就是最好的例子。 我们既不能轻易放弃一个新技术，也不能对其过于宽容，而是要对其进行检验，但也要给它时间去发展。 我的建议是，慢慢开始，就像举重一样，你不可能第一天就举起最重的重量，而是要循序渐进地训练，逐渐增加重量。 当然，你也要有判断力，如果一个技术反复失败，而且很多人都尝试过，但都没有成功，那就应该放弃它。 但不要轻易放弃，要给它足够的时间去证明自己。

John: I concur with you on that, Lex.

约翰: 莱克斯，我完全同意你的观点。

Lex: Is this where your idea of, uh, training with lower belts, yeah, quite a bit, comes from?

莱克斯: 所以，这就是你经常和低级别选手一起训练的原因吗？

John: Yeah.

约翰: 是的。

Lex: I’ve actually just as a side comment, and maybe you can elaborate, i, the, the place, the gym, uh, Balance Studios, with the Phil and Rick McGlarees, where I got my black belt, where I grew up as a Jiu-Jitsu person in Philadelphia, they have a huge number of black belts, but they have a huge number of all other ranks. And the way they picked sparring partners, people you train with, is very ad hoc. It’s very loose. It’s very one of those places, one of those gyms, where you can just kind of, you can train for like three, four hours, and it’s great. You could take a break, or you could jump back in.

莱克斯: 顺便说一下，你能不能详细谈谈这一点。 我获得黑带的地方是费城的 Balance Studios，那里的教练是菲尔和里克·麦格拉里斯，也是我在那里成长为一名巴西柔术运动员。 那里有很多黑带，也有很多其他级别的选手。 他们选择实战对手的方式非常随意，没有任何限制，你可以自由地选择任何级别的选手进行实战训练。 那里的训练氛围非常轻松，你可以连续训练三四个小时，累了就休息一下，休息好了再继续训练。

John: Very informal.

约翰: 非常自由。

Lex: Yeah. And you can go to war with black belts, but then you can also play around with the purple and the blue belts and so on.

莱克斯: 是的，你可以和黑带进行高强度的对抗，也可以和紫带、蓝带等其他级别的选手进行轻松的练习。

John: Excellent.

约翰: 那真是太棒了。

Lex: And that was really beneficial for growth. And, you know, you can pick which, because everybody has a style, you can pick which style you really want to work on right? And then I came to um, uh, Boston, Broadway Jiu-Jitsu with John Clark, who I love, he’s a good friend, but you know, the, it’s a little bit more formal. And I found myself, it’s a very interesting journey, if I would be training with black belts the whole time and, uh, it was a very different experience. I found myself exploring much less. I found myself learning much less. I mean, part of that is on my, on me, but part of it was also realizing that, uh, wow, there’s a value to training with people that are much worse than you.

莱克斯: 我认为这种训练方式非常有利于技术进步。 你可以根据自己的需要，选择不同风格的选手作为你的实战对手，针对性地练习你想要提高的技术。 后来我去了波士顿的百老汇巴西柔术，那里的教练是约翰·克拉克，我非常喜欢他，他也是我的好朋友。 但那里的训练更加正规，我一直和黑带选手一起训练。 我发现，这种训练方式与之前完全不同，我的技术进步很慢，学习到的东西也少了很多。 当然，这可能与我自身的训练态度有关，但我也意识到，和水平比自己低的选手一起训练也是非常有价值的。

John: Yes.

约翰: 没错。

Lex: Is there, is there a philosophy you could speak to on that?

莱克斯: 你能从哲学的角度解释一下这种现象吗？

John: Yeah. Um, you probably know it already. Um, you know from your studies and artificial intelligence that all human beings are naturally risk-averse. This is a bias which is deeply seated in in all of us. I’m sure you’re, you’re well read on people like Tversky and etc, who talk about this all the time. For your viewers, uh, there are numerous psychological experiments that have shown that most people, to the point of irrationality, fear loss more than they are excited at the prospect of an equivalent gain. So, for example, if you have $100 in your wallet you’re more worried about the idea of losing the $100 that you have now then you would be excited by the prospect of gaining $100 that I could potentially offer you. Um, this comes out whenever you get black belt versus black belt confrontations, or any kind of similar, um, skill level. Whenever you get similar skill levels, the chances of defeat get very, very high. Interestingly, if you’re a white belt and you’re going against a black belt you’ll take risks. Why? Because there’s no shame in losing to a black belt when you’re a white belt, so you’ll, you’ll play more light-heartedly and you’ll, you’ll have a more fun roll. But when you have very similar skill levels you’re going to come back to what the techniques that are most likely to get you a win. That number of techniques is usually pretty small. And if you’re always battling with the same tough opponents every day, where if you make even a single error, it will cost you that match in sparring, and you don’t like losing, you’re going to stay with a very small set of moves. You might get slightly better at their execution over time, but you as an individual will not grow. Growth as it does in organic life forms comes from small beginnings and builds over time. You can’t take an untested, untried move and get it on a world champion black belt. It’s going to get crushed, so it’s not ready for that. It’s like a a lion cub being thrown out into the Serengeti plains. The lion cub is just too small and too ineffective. It’s a lion, but it’s a cub, and it’s not until it grows into maturity that it can be a lion that can dominate the Serengeti plains. Why I always encourage my students to play with a variety of belt types. Um, and spend the majority of their time with lesser belts for development purposes. When you’re getting closer to a competition, you obviously want to change that. You want to be getting more a competitive sense of, of hard work. But you must learn to divide up your training cycles into non-competition cycles, where you’re presumably working with people who are slightly lower in level in yourself, and in some cases quite a bit lower than yourself, and then competition cycles, where you’re working with people much closer to your own skill level.

约翰: 你可能已经有所了解了。 你从人工智能研究中应该知道，人类天生就厌恶风险。 这种倾向深深地根植于我们每个人的心中。 我相信你对特沃斯基等心理学家的研究很熟悉，他们对此有很多论述。 大量的心理学实验表明，大多数人对损失的恐惧远大于对同等收益的渴望，甚至到了非理性的程度。 举个例子，如果你钱包里有 100 美元，你会更担心失去这 100 美元，而不是想着去赚取另外 100 美元。 当黑带选手和黑带选手对抗时，或者任何水平相近的选手对抗时，都会出现这种情况。 当双方水平相近时，失败的概率就会大大增加。 有趣的是，当白带选手和黑带选手对抗时，他们往往会更敢于冒险，因为输给黑带并不丢人，所以他们会更放松，更享受比赛的过程。 但当双方水平相近时，他们就会更加谨慎，只使用那些最有可能获胜的技术，而这些技术的数量通常非常有限。 如果你每天都和同一个强大的对手对抗，而且你知道只要犯一个错误就会输掉比赛，那么你就会变得越来越保守，只使用一小部分最保险的技术。 你的技术执行力可能会随着时间的推移而有所提高，但你个人的技术水平不会有太大的提升。 就像有机体的生长一样，技术的进步需要从微小的起点开始，逐渐积累，不断壮大。 你不可能用一个未经检验的新技术去挑战世界冠军级别的黑带，那样只会自取其辱。 这就像把一只幼狮扔到塞伦盖蒂大草原上，它太弱小，太缺乏经验，根本无法生存。 只有当它逐渐成熟，才能成为草原之王。 所以我总是鼓励我的学生和不同级别的选手一起训练，大部分时间都应该和比自己水平低的选手一起训练，这样才能更好地提升技术。 当然，在临近比赛的时候，你需要调整训练策略，和与你水平相近的选手进行更多对抗，以培养比赛的感觉。 但你必须学会区分不同的训练周期，在非比赛周期，你应该和水平比你低的选手一起训练，有时甚至要和水平比你低很多的选手一起训练；而在比赛周期，你则应该和水平与你相近的选手一起训练。

Lex: Is there something to be said about the, the flip side of that, which is um when you’re training with people at the same skill level being okay losing to them?

莱克斯: 那么，反过来呢？ 当你和水平相近的选手一起训练时，如何才能坦然接受失败呢？

John: Yes. You have to see training for what it is. Training is about skill development, not about winning or losing. You’ve got to, you’ve got to understand that you don’t need to win every battle. You only need to win the battles that count. And the, the battles that count are in the world championship finals. Okay? That’s the one that counts. Think about that win, okay? That’s the one you’re going to be remembered for. You’re not going to be remembered for the battle you lost on Tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m. in some nameless gym with some guys that no one cares about. No one’s going to remember that. You’re going to be remembered for your peak performances, not your everyday performances. Focus your everyday performances on skill development so that your peak performances, you can focus on winning.

约翰: 没错，你必须明白训练的意义。 训练是为了提升技术水平，而不是为了输赢。 你不必赢得每一场训练，你只需要赢得那些真正重要的比赛。 而真正重要的比赛是世界锦标赛的决赛。 只有那场比赛的胜利才会被人铭记。 你不会因为在某个星期二下午 3 点，在某个不知名的健身房里，输给了一个无名小卒而被人记住。 人们只会记住你的巅峰表现，而不是你的日常表现。 所以，你应该专注于在日常训练中提升技术水平，这样在关键比赛中，你才能专注于赢得胜利。

Lex: You know, I just, this is not a therapy session, but if I could just speak, every session is a therapy session. There is still an ape thing in there. Of course. You think I don’t feel it? You think everyone in the room doesn’t feel it? Because, for example, you haven’t never seen me roll, uh, you know, when there’s people, you know, I’ve seen the look in people’s eyes when they see me train and they, I could see, maybe it’s me projecting, but they think, “I thought you were supposed to be good. I thought you were supposed to be a black belt.” Like that look. They’re like,

莱克斯: 我知道我们现在不是在进行心理治疗，但我想说，每一次训练都是一次心理治疗。 我们每个人心中都还残留着原始的兽性，你认为我没有感觉到吗？ 你认为其他人没有感觉到吗？ 你没见过我实战，但当别人看到我训练时，他们的眼神里总会流露出一种怀疑，仿佛在说：“我还以为你很厉害呢，我还以为你是黑带呢”。 他们的眼神就像在说，

John: I’m gonna give you some therapy, okay? Do you know how many people have come up to me over the years who have visited the training halls that I work in, and they come up to me and go, “Man, I rolled with Gary Tonon, I did really well with him.” Like, like, “Really well.” Really? “Wrong.” I’m like, “Oh, that’s very, very good, very impressive.” And then I see them talking to their friends like, “Man, I tapped out Gary Tonon.” And I’m, I’m sitting there going, yeah. And you can see that they’re just like, “Wow, dude, I’m, I’m way better than I thought I was.” Gary Tonon, all of my students, um, I pushed him in the direction of, of giving up bad positions so that they practice working, getting out of critical situations. It’s a huge part of our training program. But Gary Tonon takes that to a level that just no one else even gets close. It’s, it’s just amazing. Like, he will put himself in impossible situations where it’s a fully locked strangle, 100% on, with both his arms behind his back, and he’ll try to work out from there.

约翰: 我来给你做一下心理疏导吧。 你知道这些年来，有多少人来过我的训练馆，然后跑来跟我说：“我和加里·托农练过，我表现得很好” 吗？ 他们还会强调说“真的很好”。 真的吗？ 其实他们错了。 我会礼貌地回应说：“哦，那真的很棒，太厉害了”。 然后我会看到他们跟朋友吹嘘说：“我降服了加里·托农”。 我心里想，呵呵。 你可以看到他们那种沾沾自喜的表情，觉得自己比想象中厉害得多。 加里·托农，还有我所有的学生，我都会让他们主动放弃有利位置，练习在不利情况下如何逃脱，这是我们训练计划中非常重要的一部分。 但加里·托农在这方面的练习已经达到了一种无人能及的境界。 他会让自己陷入极度不利的境地，比如被对手完全锁住勒颈，双手被控制在身后，然后尝试从那种情况下逃脱。 他的表现简直不可思议。

Lex: Yeah. And seven times out of 10 he does, but three times out of 10 he gets caught.

莱克斯: 没错，他十次里面能成功七次，但还有三次会被对手降服。

John: He, I’m a huge advocate of handicapped training, where you handicap yourself to work on skills. He’s took that to heart to a level that few people I believe can match.

约翰: 我非常推崇“让步式训练”，也就是让选手在训练中主动放弃优势，专注于练习特定技术。 加里·托农在这方面已经达到了一种炉火纯青的境界，很少有人能够做到像他那样。

Lex: I just wonder what his psychology is like because it goes back to what we talked about. For, legs, you have to understand, its skill development, don’t take it personally.

莱克斯: 我很想知道他的心理状态是怎样的，因为他似乎完全不在乎输赢，就像我们之前说的，训练是为了提升技术，而不是为了证明自己。

John: Um, I understand. I hear where you’re coming from. We’ve all got what you call the ape reflex, where we want to be dominant, okay? We all do. Like, because there’s thousands of white belts out there that have tapped Gary Tonon.

约翰: 我理解你的感受，我们每个人心中都有你说的那种“猿类反射”，就是我们想要占据主导地位，对吧？我们都会有这种反应。就像有成千上万的白带曾经让Gary Tonon认输一样。

Lex: Yeah. And they’re walking around and they’re people saying online, “Dude, I tapped Gary Tonon. Like Gary Tonon is like one of the best in the world, so I’m one of the best in the world.”

莱克斯: 没错，他们到处吹嘘说：“我降服过加里·托农，加里·托农是世界顶级选手，所以我也是世界顶级选手。”

John: And, um, uh, “Does Gary get upset about this?” No. Of course not, because Gary knows that when it counts, on stage, he’s going to be going 100, with a set of skills that very few people can match. Um, he can go into an EBI overtime, at the 205-pound weight division, against an ADCC champion, starting in a full arm lock position, and effortlessly get out, with no problems, in seconds because he’s been in that situation 25,000 times, with varying degrees of skill opponents. And there’s just no panic, no fear. He’s just doing what he’s done so many thousands of times, and that’s a fine, fine example of a guy who didn’t give a damn what happened in the training room, but when it counted, on the stage, in front of the cameras, it, it kicked in, yeah.

约翰: 加里会为此感到生气吗？ 当然不会，因为他知道在真正重要的比赛中，他会全力以赴，用他那无人能及的技术去赢得胜利。 他可以在 EBI 205 磅级比赛的加时赛中，从被 ADCC 冠军完全锁住手臂的不利位置开始，毫不费力地在几秒钟内逃脱，因为他已经经历过成千上万次类似的情况，与各种水平的对手进行过无数次这样的练习。 他不会感到恐慌，也不会感到恐惧，只是平静地重复着自己做过无数次的动作。 他就是一个很好的例子，一个在训练中不在乎输赢，但在正式比赛中却能爆发出惊人能量的选手。

Lex: He’s, he’s an incredible inspiration, actually. Uh, this, he’s a practitioner, something you’ve recently talked quite a bit about, which is, uh, the power of escaping, sort of, bad positions. Uh, I think you’ve talked about it, which is really interesting framing, is uh, escaping bad positions is one of the best ways, if not the best way, to demonstrate dominance psychologically over your opponent, that anything they throw at you, like their weapons are useless against you. Um, there’s a little bit of Lex Friedman kicking through on this question. Your obsession with dominance is, um uh,

莱克斯: 他确实是一个非常鼓舞人心的人。 他也是“逃脱大师”的实践者。 你最近经常谈到这个话题，也就是从不利位置逃脱的力量。 你曾经说过，逃脱不利位置是展现心理优势的最佳方式之一，甚至可以说是最好的方式。 因为这意味着对手对你的一切攻击都是徒劳的，他们的武器对你毫无作用。 我个人对这个问题有一些不同的看法，因为你总是强调“控制”，而我更倾向于，

John: It’s a therapy session. It’s a therapy session.

约翰: 看来我又要给你做心理疏导了。

Lex: I’m coming from a wrestling perspective. I think it’s not just Lex Friedman, I think it’s Dan Gable. I think it’s dominant, the Gary Tonon ethic. It just goes against everything wrestling is about: you never put yourself in a bad position. And the fact this, it’s, uh, philosophically, I don’t know what to do with it. It’s a total reframing of showing dominance by escaping any bad position.

莱克斯: 我来自摔跤界，我的想法可能和丹·盖博一样，也和加里·托农的理念一致。 我们认为，永远不应该让自己陷入不利的位置，这与你强调的“逃脱”完全相反。 从哲学的角度来说，我不知道该如何理解你的这种理念，这完全颠覆了我们对“控制”的认知。

John: Yeah. Let’s talk about the idea of, what, what, what is the value of escapes? Why do I put this in as as the first skill that every Jiu-Jitsu student must master? Um, believe it or not, uh, when I talked about how it pertains to dominance, that’s its smallest value. Its greatest value has nothing to do with dominance, it has to do with confidence. You can train someone and teach them technique until you’re blue in the face, but at some point the athlete in question has to go out there on the stage and pull the trigger when the time is right. What’s going to give you that ability to go from the physical skills that you’ve learned to execution under pressure? Is confidence. I always talk about skill development and yes, skill development is the absolute bedrock of my training programs, but you can’t finish at that level. There has to be something more than that, and you have to go from the physical element of skill into the psychological element of confidence. I can teach you an armbar all day. You can get to a point where you can flawlessly execute armbars and drilling and even in a certain level of competition, but if you believe that, in attempting an armbar on a dangerous opponent with good guard passing skills, say the armbar is being performed from guard position, that if the armbar fails and your opponent uses that failure to set up a strong pass and get into a side pin, possibly into the mount, and you don’t have the ability to get out of that side pin or mount, you won’t pull the trigger on the armbar. And so, even though you had all the requisite physical skills to perform the technique, when push came to shove and the critical moment came, you back down. You didn’t pull the trigger. Building that confidence is the key to championship performance. And the single best way to do it is to take away the innate fear that we all have of bad outcomes, that makes us naturally risk-averse. When you don’t believe you can be pinned, when you don’t believe your guard can be passed, you’ll take risks because there’s no downside to your actions. An unpinnable person and an unpassable person doesn’t have much to fear in a Jiu-Jitsu match. You can come out and fire, with all guns blazing because then you know at the end of the day, no one’s going to hold you down, no one’s going to pass your guard. That’s your first two goals in Jiu-Jitsu. They’re the most boring goals, they’re not exciting to learn. No one wants to come in and they’re first met told, “Okay, you’re going to practice escapes for the next year of your life.” I can’t still go, “You’re kidding me.” But that’s what you gotta have. That’s your first skill, and that’s what I push upon all of my students. You’ll see almost all of them are very, very strong and escape skills. They know that if things go wrong, they can always get out, they can always live to fight another day. And that is what gives them the ability to attack without fear.

约翰: 我们来谈谈逃脱的价值。 为什么我把逃脱作为每个巴西柔术学生都必须掌握的第一项技能？ 虽然我之前说过逃脱可以展现心理优势，但这只是它最不重要的一个价值。 它最重要的价值在于建立自信。 你可以不断地训练一个人的技术，但最终他必须在赛场上，在合适的时机，勇敢地使用这些技术。 是什么让他能够将训练中学到的技术运用到实战中，并在压力下依然保持高效的执行力？ 是自信。 我经常强调技术的重要性，技术的确是我的训练体系的基石，但这还不够，你还需要将技术转化为自信。 我可以教你一整天的十字固，你可以把它练到炉火纯青，甚至在比赛中也能熟练运用。 但如果你担心在使用十字固时失败，而对手会利用你的失败来突破你的防守，进入侧控，甚至骑乘，并且你无法从侧控或骑乘中逃脱，那么你就不会在实战中使用十字固。 即使你具备了完成这项技术的全部身体素质，但在关键时刻，你还是会因为缺乏自信而退缩，不敢出手。 建立自信是取得成功的关键，而建立自信最好的方法就是消除对失败的恐惧，克服天生的风险厌恶心理。 当你不再担心被压制，不再担心防守被突破时，你就会变得更加大胆，敢于冒险，因为你已经无所畏惧。 一个无法被压制，防守无法被突破的人，在巴西柔术比赛中没有什么可怕的，他们可以毫无顾虑地进攻，全力以赴地去争取胜利。 所以在巴西柔术中，你首先要学会的就是如何逃脱压制，如何防止防守被突破。 这两个目标听起来很无聊，练起来也很枯燥，没有人愿意花一年的时间去练习逃脱。 但这是你必须掌握的基本功，是我对所有学生的要求。 你会发现，我的学生几乎都拥有非常强大的逃脱能力，因为他们知道，即使陷入困境，他们也能逃脱，并且能够继续战斗。 这就是他们能够无所畏惧地进攻的原因。

Lex: I think that is so profound and so rare. It’s so rare to hear this. I think it’s because it’s the most painful thing to do, always ask yourself when you enter a Jiu-Jitsu match: you already know ahead of time if you’re going to lose, how you’re going to lose. Okay? There’s only a certain number of realistic submissions that work in the sport of Jiu-Jitsu. The number is very small, so ahead of time you already know the most likely methods of submission loss. And Jiu-Jitsu are going to be things like heel hook, armbar, Rear Naked Strangle, guillotine, etc. Just work backwards from that knowledge, so start off learning how to defend all of those things. You know what the major losing positions are in Jiu-Jitsu. Someone gets mounted on you: rear mount, side control, knee on belly. Those are positions you can only lose from, so work backwards from there: getting out of those positions, and that’s how I always start. I always say with my students, “I teach beginners from the ground up and I teach experts backwards.” What does that mean? When a young student comes to me with no skills they learn from the ground up. They start on their backs, defending pins. Then they start on their backs, working from half guard bottom. Then on their backs, working from variations of guard. They don’t even get to see top position until they’re strong off their backs. Then they go on to their knees, and they start passing, start standing and passing, and then they work their pins and transitions, and then ultimately they stand up to their feet, and they work standing position on their feet. So they work from ground back, on the floor, to ground knees on the floor, ground standing, and then both athletes standing, is a gradual progression over time where they work from the bottom to the top. With regards experts, I teach them end game first. They must become very, very strong in what finishes the match, which is submission holds. Okay? In chess we always talk about end game. I do the same thing in Jiu-Jitsu. I start experts just looking at the mechanics of breaking people. And all the sufficient holds that I teach, you should know that I teach only a very small number of submission holds, around six. Um, it’s interesting, my students have by far and away the highest submission rate in contemporary Jiu-Jitsu, but they only learn around six to seven submission holds. I start them with mechanics where they learn the end game, how to break someone. Once they develop in their mind the belief that, “If the conditional, if they can get to one of those six positions there’s a very high likelihood they’ll win,” if they truly believe then, when it’s competition time, they’ll fucking find a way to get to those positions. That’s confidence. But if you don’t believe, let’s say you believe, “Man, if I get to a finishing position, an armbar, or a strangle, there’s only like a 20% chance I’ll finish with it.” How hard are you going to fight to get to that position? You’re not. Why? Why would you? But if you believe there’s a 98% chance if you get to that position you’ll finish, you’ll find a way to get down.

莱克斯: 你的理念非常深刻，也很少有人会这样教，因为这确实很痛苦。 你要让学生们明白，在参加比赛之前，他们就已经知道自己会以什么样的方式输掉比赛。 因为在巴西柔术中，真正有效的降服技术数量非常有限，所以你可以提前预判对手最有可能用哪些技术来降服你，比如足跟勾、十字固、裸绞、断头台等等。 然后你就可以反过来思考，学习如何去防守这些技术。 你也知道巴西柔术中最容易输掉比赛的位置，比如被对手骑乘，包括后背骑乘、侧控和膝盖压制腹部。 这些位置都是非常不利的，你只能从这些位置中逃脱，才能避免失败。 所以我的教学方式就是从逃脱开始。 我经常对我的学生说，我“从基础开始教初学者，从终点开始教专家”。 这是什么意思呢？ 对于零基础的学生，我会从最基础的技术开始教起，让他们先学会如何从压制中逃脱。 然后让他们从下位半防守开始练习，再到各种防守技术的变化，直到他们能够熟练地从下位逃脱，才会开始练习上位技术。 他们会逐渐学会从跪姿突破防守，从站立姿势突破防守，然后练习各种压制和转换技术，最终学会站立技术。 所以，我的教学顺序是从下位到上位，循序渐进。 而对于专家级选手，我会先教他们“终局”，也就是如何用降服技术来终结比赛。 就像国际象棋中的“残局”一样，我会先让他们学习如何用最有效的技术去降服对手。 我只会教他们很少的降服技术，大约六种，但我的学生拥有最高的降服率，因为他们只练习这六七种降服技术，并且对它们了如指掌。 我会先教他们这些降服技术的机制，让他们学习如何去“终结”对手。 当他们在脑海中形成“只要我进入这六个位置中的任何一个，就很有可能获胜”的信念时，他们在比赛中就会想方设法进入这些位置，并最终降服对手。 这就是自信的力量。 但如果你不相信自己能够用这些技术降服对手，比如你认为“即使我进入十字固或勒颈的终结位置，也只有 20% 的概率能够成功”，那么你就不会全力以赴地去争取这些位置。 为什么要浪费时间和精力去做一件成功率很低的事情呢？ 但如果你相信自己有 98% 的概率能够成功，你就会拼尽全力去争取那个位置。

John: That is so powerful. There are certain things, maybe going back to Judo a little bit, as, the, there’s a clock choke, for people who are listening, it’s with the gi, when a purple, or when a person is in a turtle position, in a crouching position, and this is something that’s done in Judo quite a bit, but i have, doesn’t matter what the technique is, I have a belief in my head that there’s not a person in the world that I can’t choke with that clock choke, and I’ve done that and that, it was a, it built on itself. The belief made the technique better and better and better.

约翰: 你说的太对了，有些技术就是这样，只要你相信自己能够做到，就一定能做到。 比如柔道中的“钟形勒颈”，也就是用道服勒住处于龟形的对手。 这种技术在柔道中很常见，但我相信，世界上没有人能够逃脱我的“钟形勒颈”。 我曾经无数次用这项技术降服对手，而且随着我的信念越来越坚定，我的技术也越来越精湛。

John: Now you’re on to something. That’s exactly the mindset that I’m trying to coach.

约翰: 你终于明白了，这正是我想要培养的思维模式。

Lex: But that’s step one. You have to believe that, but you got to stop somewhere. And then, it’s step one, but then you have to create a system.

莱克斯: 但这只是第一步，你必须相信自己能够做到。 但你也不能固步自封，你需要在此基础上建立一个完整的体系。

John: But it’s a damn important step.

约翰: 但这的确是非常重要的一步。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 没错。

John: So you coach the end game first, and then you fill in the details afterwards.

约翰: 所以，你应该先训练“终局”，然后再完善细节。

Lex: Yeah. That’s a huge confidence builder. But I just, I have to say to admit, and it makes me sad, but I think I’m not alone, I think a majority of Jiu-Jitsu people are like this, that, uh, I didn’t do the, the beginner step that you talk about, which is the focusing on escapes. I think I learned the wrong lessons from being, from losing. I remember in a blue belt competition, long ago, one I was, uh, I think it was, yeah, it was the finals of Atlanta IBJJF tournament, and there’s a person that passed my guard, uh, and he took him out, and he stayed a mount for a long time, and I couldn’t breathe. And it was like one of those things where I was truly dominated. I don’t think I’ve been dominated just a match quite like that before, and or after. And the lesson I learned from that is “I’m not going to let”, like as opposed to working on escapes, “I’m not going to let anyone pass my guard.”

莱克斯: 没错，这的确是一个非常有效的建立自信的方法。 但我不得不承认，我并没有按照你说的那样，从练习逃脱开始，这让我感到很遗憾。 我认为大多数巴西柔术练习者都和我一样，从失败中学到了错误的教训。 我记得很久以前，在一场蓝带比赛中，我输掉了亚特兰大 IBJJF 锦标赛的决赛。 对手突破了我的防守，骑乘在我身上很长时间，我几乎无法呼吸。 我从来没有在比赛中被对手如此压制过。 从那以后，我吸取的教训是“我绝不让任何人突破我的防守”，而不是去练习如何逃脱。

John: What you learned is, “Don’t take risks. Don’t take risks.” Which is ultimately what kills you. Ultimately, you become the best you can, you got to take risks. As they say, nothing risked, nothing gained. Failure usually makes us even more risk-averse than we started. We’re already mentally biased, being human beings, in that direction, and failure tends to reinforce that. Um, I work hard in my training programs to try and correct that fold.

约翰: 你学到的是“不要冒险”，但这最终会毁掉你。 要想成为最优秀的选手，你必须敢于冒险。 常言道，不入虎穴，焉得虎子。 失败往往会加剧我们对风险的厌恶。 作为人类，我们天生就倾向于规避风险，而失败会强化这种倾向。 在我的训练计划中，我会努力纠正这种错误的思维模式。

Lex: Is it still possible for a person who’s a black belt to, to then just go back to that beginning journey, I guess, of,

莱克斯: 那么，一个已经是黑带的选手，还能回到最初的起点，重新开始吗？

John: Of course.

约翰: 当然可以。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 好的。

John: Let me tell you something. I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack for saying this. I have a belief, I won’t say something, I won’t call it knowledge because it’s not known, but I have a fervent belief that human beings, in most skill activities, not all skill activities, but I will say combat sports for sure, can reinvent themselves in five-year periods. Now, you might be saying, “Five years? What’s magical about five years?” Mike Tyson was 13 years old when he was taken in by Cus D’Amato. By the age of 18 he was beating world-class boxers in the gym and had already made a a strong name for himself in international boxing. It was already a a known figure. It was five years. Yasuhiro Yamashita, the Judo player, began Judo at 13. He placed silver in the All Japans at 17. I could go on all day with examples of athletes who within a five-year time frame of starting a sport were competing at world championship level. I’m going to give you a rough and ready definition of sport mastery, okay? I believe that if you can play a competitive match against someone ranked in the top 25 in your sport, and it’s a serious international sport, I would call you someone who’s mastered that sport. Okay? You’re damn good. If you can go with the number 25 wrestler in the world and give them a hard, competitive match in the gym, you may not win it, but you know they had a good workout. You have shown mastery of wrestling, or indeed any other combat sport you care to name. There are numerous examples of people doing far better than that in five years, winning medals at world championships and even Olympic games in that five-year period. This is not an unrealistic goal. There is a lot of empirical evidence to show that people have done this in the past, a lot of it. So if you fully immerse yourself in a sport, with a well worked out, well-planned training program, there is a mountain of evidence to show that in a five-year period you can go from a complete beginner to a very, very impressive skill level, to the point where you’re competitive with some of the best people on the planet. You can reinvent yourself in these five-year periods. What happens with most people is they get to a certain level, and they get complacent, they get lazy, and they just keep doing the same old thing they’ve been doing. But if you’re diligent and you’re purposeful, five years, you can accomplish an awful lot. And as I said, there’s a mountain of evidence to show it.

约翰: 我接下来要说的可能会引起很多争议。 我有一个坚定的信念，虽然没有确凿的证据，但我相信，在大多数技能领域，尤其是格斗运动，人类可以在五年内重塑自我。 你可能会问：“五年？ 五年有什么特别之处？” 迈克·泰森在 13 岁时被库斯·达马托收养，到 18 岁时，他已经在拳击馆里击败了世界级的拳击手，并且在国际拳坛声名鹊起。 他只用了五年时间就取得了这样的成就。 柔道运动员山下泰裕在 13 岁时开始练习柔道，17 岁时就获得了全日本柔道锦标赛的银牌。 我可以举出很多这样的例子，很多运动员都在开始练习某项运动后的五年内就达到了世界锦标赛的水平。 我给“精通”一个简单的定义：如果你能够和世界排名前 25 的选手进行一场势均力敌的比赛，那么你就已经精通了这项运动。 你能和世界排名第 25 的摔跤手在训练中进行对抗，即使你无法战胜他，但你让他感受到压力，这就说明你已经精通了摔跤，或者其他任何格斗运动。 有很多运动员在五年内取得了更大的成就，他们在世界锦标赛甚至奥运会上都获得了奖牌。 这不是一个遥不可及的目标，有很多经验证据表明，很多人在过去都做到了这一点。 所以，如果你全身心地投入到一项运动中，并制定一个科学合理的训练计划，你完全有可能在五年内从一个菜鸟变成一个技术精湛的选手，甚至可以和世界上最优秀的选手一较高下。 你可以在五年内重塑自我。 大多数人之所以无法取得更大的进步，是因为他们在达到一定水平后就变得自满，不再努力训练，只是重复着以前的老套路。 但如果你能够坚持不懈地努力，并且目标明确，那么你在五年内就能取得巨大的进步。 正如我所说，有很多证据可以证明这一点。

John: By the way, as a small aside, somebody who’s mentioned Tversky and Yamashita in the same conversation, you’re one of the most impressive people I’ve ever spoken to.

约翰: 顺便说一句，能够在同一个对话中提到特沃斯基和山下泰裕，你是我见过的最博学的人之一。

Lex: But it’s, that’s a small side, uh, so if if there’s this complete beginner, this is really interesting. There is empirical evidence that you can achieve incredible things in a short amount of time. There’s a complete beginner standing before you, and that beginner has fire in their eyes, and they want to achieve mastery. Where do you place most of the credit for it, for a journey that does achieve mastery? Is it the set of ideas they have in their mind? Is it the, the set of drills, or the way they practice? Is it genetics and luck?

莱克斯: 你说的很有道理，的确有很多经验证据表明，人们可以在短时间内取得惊人的进步。 假设一个零基础的初学者站在你面前，他眼中充满着对成功的渴望，想要精通某项技能。 如果他最终成功了，你认为他最应该感谢的是什么？ 是他头脑中的想法？ 还是他所练习的 drills 和训练方法？ 又或者是他的基因和运气？

John: Those are all good. In science, all of those factors you’ve mentioned play a definite role. Let’s start with luck, okay? We are all subject to fortune, and fortune can be good and fortune can be bad. Uh, life is in many ways beautiful, but life is also tragic. And I’ve had students who showed enormous promise, and just tragic events occurred in their lives. The vicissitudes of fortune can be a wonderful thing in your life, and they can be a a terrible tragedy. Um, I’ve had students who, who died, uh, for various reasons who could have gone on to become world champions. I’ve had students who, uh, on a much lighter note just fell in love and just wanted to have kids and move away, and that’s, that’s a, that’s a wonderful thing but different direction. Um, you just never know. So luck does play some role, um, even things like where you’re born, uh, the location of your physical location in the world, or even the socio-economic location can, can play a role, which could be detrimental or favorable. So, yeah, luck does play some role. Thankfully, it’s one of the smaller elements, and I do believe that a truly resourceful mind can overcome the majority of what fortune throws at us and, and get two goals provided you’re sufficiently mentally robust. Other things you mentioned, genetics. I do believe in certain sports, genetics really do play a powerful, powerful role. For example, in any sport where power output and reaction speed, ability to take physical damage, then there are genetic elements which will help. Okay. For example, i, I couldn’t imagine a world in which even if I, I have a crippled leg, so even if I, uh, grew up in a world where my leg was, was normal, and I had normal legs, and everything was fine with my body, I don’t believe that I could win the Olympic gold medal in 100-meter sprinting, for example. Okay? I just don’t have enough fast twitch muscle fibers. But the more a sport involves skill and tactics, the less you will see genetics playing a role. If you look at the middle podiums in Jiu-Jitsu, for example, you will see that no one body type is definitively superior to another. You will see every variation of body type in the metal platforms in Jiu-Jitsu. As skill and tactics become more and more important, and things like just power output over time become less and less important, then you will see that, um, genetics play less and less of a role. I’m, I’m happy to say that the sport of Jiu-Jitsu, the evidence seems pretty clear that there’s no one dominant body type in a sport of Jiu-Jitsu rather there’s just advantages for one type, and there’s advantages for another. You just have to learn to tailor your game to your body. With regards to training program, yes I believe with all my heart and all my soul that your training program does make a difference. I’ve dedicated my life to that. Obviously, I’m biased in this regard. Um, I do believe that all of the students that I taught who became world champions would have been great athletes, whether or not they had met me or not. I believe that, but I do also believe it would have taken them a lot longer, and they may not have gotten to the level that they did. They, I’m sure they would have been impressive, but I do believe that the nature of a training program plays an enormous difference. I don’t mean to say this in an arrogant way. I believe that, there’s again, a mountain of evidence to suggest this is true, because you see it in many different sports. Let’s talk for example about your country, Russia, and its wrestling program. Russia is an enormous country, but the location where Russia’s wrestling program comes from is actually very small, and the population is actually very small. I can’t verify this, but I was told once, I can’t verify this, but the number of people who wrestle in Russia is actually significantly smaller than the number of people who wrestle in the United States.

约翰: 你提到的这些因素都很重要，在科学研究中，它们都发挥着一定的作用。 我们先来说说运气。 我们都受命运的摆布，命运可能是好的，也可能是坏的。 生活是美好的，但同时也是充满悲剧的。 我曾经教过一些非常有天赋的学生，但他们却因为各种意外而无法实现自己的潜力。 命运的无常可能给你带来好运，也可能让你遭遇不幸。 我曾经有学生因为各种原因去世，他们本来有可能成为世界冠军。 也有一些学生，他们只是因为恋爱结婚，想要生儿育女，然后就搬走了，这也是一种美好的生活，只是方向不同。 你永远无法预知未来。 所以，运气确实很重要，甚至你的出身、你生活的地方、你的社会经济地位等等，都会对你的人生产生影响，可能是积极的，也可能是消极的。 幸运的是，运气只是众多因素中的一部分，而且我认为，一个真正有毅力的人，只要内心足够强大，就能克服命运带来的大部分挑战，最终实现自己的目标。 你提到的另一个因素是基因。 我相信在某些运动项目中，基因确实非常重要，比如那些需要爆发力、反应速度和抗击打能力的运动，基因优势会让你更容易取得成功。 比如，我天生就缺乏快肌纤维，所以即使我的腿没有残疾，即使我从小就进行专业的短跑训练，我相信我也不可能获得奥运会 100 米短跑的金牌。 但是，一项运动的技术性和战术性越强，基因的影响就越小。 比如，在巴西柔术比赛中，你会发现各种体型的选手都能够登上领奖台，没有哪种体型占据绝对优势。 随着技术和战术变得越来越重要，而单纯的力量输出变得越来越不重要，基因的作用就会越来越小。 我很高兴巴西柔术是一项对体型没有特殊要求的运动，各种体型的选手都有各自的优势，你只需要根据自己的体型特点来调整自己的技术风格。 至于训练计划，我坚信它对一个人的成功至关重要，我为此奉献了自己的一生。 当然，我在这方面可能会有偏见，但我相信，我教过的那些获得世界冠军的学生，即使没有遇到我，他们也能够取得成功，只是可能需要更长的时间，而且不一定能达到现在的水平。 我毫不怀疑他们的天赋，但我相信，一个好的训练计划能够起到巨大的作用。 我这样说并不是出于自负，而是因为有很多证据可以证明这一点，在很多体育项目中都是如此。 就拿你的祖国俄罗斯的摔跤项目来说，虽然俄罗斯是一个幅员辽阔的国家，但俄罗斯摔跤的强盛主要集中在一个人口规模很小的地区。 我无法证实这一点，但我听说，俄罗斯的摔跤人口实际上远远少于美国。

Lex: It’s also not part of the school, uh, uh, athletics and it is in the United States.

莱克斯: 而且，在美国，摔跤是学校体育项目的一部分，但在俄罗斯不是。

John: Yes, that’s a different point we’ll come back to right to that, because that’s also an important point. But if you look at the actual numbers of people there, they’re actually pretty small. So, ostensibly, if it comes down to a numbers game, America should dominate at the Olympics, if we have more wrestlers. Now this, the story gets more complicated because America has a different style of wrestling, the collegiate style, than the international freestyle. That is a complicating factor, but nonetheless, uh, what you see there is that numbers on everything, rather the manner in which people are trained, clearly has an impact. And we know very little about the, this, very little reliable information about the training program for wrestling in, uh, in the Russian states. But one thing is incontestable, is the amount of success that they’ve had in international world championship and Olympic competition. They are disproportionately successful, despite their relatively small numbers. There’s nothing genetically special about them. Um, you can talk about performance-enhancing drugs, but those are a worldwide phenomenon, they don’t have any access to technology that the rest of the world doesn’t have. At some point, you’ve got to start asking, “What are they doing differently in the training room?” And there are many other examples of similar situations. My country, New Zealand, um, has an insanely successful rugby program, the sport of rugby, which they have dominated for literally generations, despite the fact that our population is very, very small compared with the rest of the country, and we don’t excel in many other sports. It’s, New Zealand does fairly well in sports overall, but nothing like they do in rugby. And you’ve got to ask yourself, “Is there a culture there which, which built this up?” And the world is full of examples of seemingly small and unpromising areas, or locations, putting out disproportionately high numbers of successful athletes. And that points to the idea that different training programs have different success rates. And so, I truly believe with all my heart and all my soul that how you train does make a significant difference. I would even go further and say, it makes the most difference. Is it the only thing? Absolutely not. We’ve already talked about fortune, we’ve talked about genetics. If you want to get nasty, you can even talk about things like performance-enhancing drugs. That obviously plays a role in modern sports, um, uh, but I do believe that the majority of uh, of what creates success is the interaction between the athlete and the training program. Now, the training program is one thing. I do believe that’s the single most important, but right behind it is the athlete themselves, okay? Um, in my own experience, uh, people talk about athletes that I’ve trained successfully, but they never talk about athletes that I’ve trained unsuccessfully. Um, always remember that for every champion a coach produces, there’s a hundred people that they coach that no one ever heard of, and this is completely normal. A coach can never take the lion’s share of the credit. A coach creates possibilities, but it’s the athlete who actualizes the possibilities. And so, building that rapport and finding the right people to excel in your training program is also a big part of it.

约翰: 我们一会儿再讨论这个问题，因为它很重要。 但如果只看参与人数，俄罗斯的摔跤人口其实非常少。 所以，如果只是拼人数，拥有更多摔跤选手的美国应该在奥运会上占据主导地位。 当然，这个问题比较复杂，因为美国的大学摔跤和国际自由式摔跤的风格有所不同，但这并不是决定性因素。 从俄罗斯摔跤队的成绩来看，训练方式显然比参与人数更重要。 我们对俄罗斯的摔跤训练体系了解不多，但有一点是毋庸置疑的，那就是他们在世界锦标赛和奥运会上都取得了巨大的成功，他们的成功率远远高于他们的参与人数。 他们并没有什么特别的基因优势，至于兴奋剂，那是一个全球性的问题，他们使用的技术也和其他国家一样。 所以我们不禁要问，他们在训练中到底有什么秘诀？ 世界上有很多类似的例子。 比如我的祖国新西兰，他们的橄榄球队非常强大，已经统治这项运动很多年了，尽管新西兰的人口非常少，而且他们在其他体育项目上并没有特别突出的表现。 但他们在橄榄球上的统治力是毋庸置疑的。 这不禁让人思考，是什么造就了新西兰橄榄球的辉煌？ 世界上有很多看似不起眼的地方，却培养出了大量优秀的运动员，这说明训练计划对一个人的成功起着至关重要的作用。 我坚信，训练方法比其他任何因素都更重要，甚至是最重要的因素。 当然，它不是唯一的因素，我们之前已经讨论过运气和基因。 如果你想深究的话，还可以讨论兴奋剂，它在现代体育中确实扮演着重要的角色。 但我认为，成功的关键在于运动员和训练计划之间的相互作用。 训练计划很重要，但我认为更重要的是运动员本身。 根据我自己的经验，人们总是谈论那些被我训练成功的运动员，却从来不提那些没有成功的。 你要记住，每个成功的教练背后，都有成百上千个默默无闻的失败者，这是很正常的现象。 教练不能把所有的功劳都归于自己，教练只是创造了可能性，而能否将可能性变成现实，最终取决于运动员自己。 所以，建立良好的教练-运动员关系，找到那些能够在你的训练体系中脱颖而出的人，也是非常重要的。

Lex: What makes the difference between the successful, your successes and your failures as a coach?

莱克斯: 是什么造成了你作为教练的成功和失败？

John: A range of reasons. The single most important is persistence. People will point to all kinds of virtues amongst athletes: “This guy’s the most courageous, this guy’s the strongest.” These are all virtues, but the one indispensable virtue is persistence: the ability just to stay in the game long enough to get the results you seek.

约翰: 原因有很多，但最重要的是坚持不懈。 人们会列举运动员的各种优点，比如“这个人最勇敢”，“那个人最强壮”。 这些都是优秀的品质，但唯一不可或缺的品质是坚持不懈，也就是坚持足够长的时间，直到取得你想要的结果。

Lex: But what does persistence really look like, if we can just break that apart a little bit? It’s, actually, this is a great question you’re asking, because most people see it as a kind of simplistic doggedness, where you just show up every day. That’s not it.

莱克斯: 你能具体解释一下“坚持不懈”吗？ 你问了一个很好的问题，因为大多数人都认为它只是一种简单的“坚持”，每天都去训练。 但这并不是“坚持不懈”的全部含义。

John: The most important form of persistence is persistence of thinking, which looks to push you in increasingly efficient, more and more efficient methods of training. Famously, people talk about the idea that the hardest work of all is hard thinking, and they’re absolutely right. Okay? Coming into the gym and just doing the same thing for a decade isn’t going to make you better. What’s going to make you better is progressive training over time, where you identify clear goals, marked out in time increments: three months, six months, 12 months, five years, and build those short-term goals into a program of long-term goals, making sure that the training program changes over time, so that as your skill level rises, the challenges you face in the gym become higher and higher. Don’t kill them at the start with challenges that are too hard for them to deal with. They get discouraged and leave. Build them slowly over time, but make sure they don’t just get left in a swamp where they’re just doing the same thing that we’re doing three years ago, and they get bored. And there’s two ways you can leave in a gym: you can leave from adversity, it was too tough, or you can leave from boredom. Everyone talks about the first, no one talks about the second. Most people when they get to black belt they get bored. They know what their game is, they know what they’re good at, they know what they’re not good at. When they compete, they stick with what they’re good at, and they avoid what they’re not good at.

约翰: “坚持不懈” 最重要的形式是思考的坚持不懈，它会促使你不断改进训练方法，提高训练效率。 人们常说，最难的工作是思考，这话一点也不假。 如果你只是每天去健身房，重复着同样的训练内容，十年如一日，你的技术水平不会有太大的提高。 要想取得进步，你需要进行循序渐进的训练，设定明确的目标，并将其分解成三个月、六个月、十二个月、五年等不同的时间段，将短期目标融入到长期目标的规划中。 你需要确保训练计划随着时间的推移而不断调整，随着你的技术水平的提高，训练难度也要不断提升。 你不能一开始就给学生设定太高的目标，让他们难以完成，否则他们会感到 discouraged，然后放弃训练。 你需要循序渐进地引导他们，但也不能让他们一直在舒适区里重复着同样的训练内容，否则他们会感到 bored，然后失去训练的兴趣。 人们离开健身房的原因有两个：一个是训练太苦太累，另一个是训练太 boring。 所有人都知道第一个原因，却很少有人注意到第二个原因。 很多获得黑带的选手都会陷入这种困境，他们已经掌握了一套自己的技术体系，知道自己擅长什么，不擅长什么，所以在比赛中只会使用自己擅长的技术，而刻意回避自己不擅长的技术。

Lex: Yeah. And they get bored, they reach a plateau, and that’s it. My whole thing is to make sure it’s not so tough at the start that they leave because of adversity, and then for the rest of their career to make sure it’s not boring, so they leave because of boredom.

莱克斯: 没错，他们会感到厌倦，技术停滞不前，最终放弃训练。 我作为教练的目标就是，在一开始不要给学生太大的压力，让他们因为难以承受而放弃；同时，在他们之后的训练过程中，也要不断地给他们新的挑战，让他们保持对训练的兴趣，避免因为枯燥乏味而放弃。

John: Travis Stevens actually said something that changed the way I see training. He said it as a side comment, but he said that at the end of a training, at the end of a good training session, your mind should be exhausted, not your body. And, um, I’ve for most of my life saw good training sessions where my body was exhausted.

约翰: 特拉维斯·史蒂文斯曾经说过一句话，改变了我对训练的看法。 他只是随口一说，但他认为，在一堂好的训练课结束后，你应该感到 mental exhaustion，而不是 physical exhaustion。 而我以前总是认为，好的训练就应该让人感到筋疲力尽。

Lex: Yes, I believe that’s the case with most people.

莱克斯: 没错，我相信大多数人都是这样想的。

John: Yeah. You should come out of the training session with your mind buzzing with ideas, like possibilities for tomorrow.

约翰: 你应该在训练结束后感到思绪万千，脑子里充满了新的想法，对未来的训练充满了期待。

Lex: And by the way, on that note, I would go further and say that the training session doesn’t finish when your body stops moving, it finishes when your mind stops moving. And your mind shouldn’t stop moving after that session. There should be analysis: “What did I do well? What did I do badly? How could I do better with the things that I did well?”.

莱克斯: 我还要补充一点，训练并不是在你停止运动的那一刻结束，而是在你停止思考的那一刻结束。 在训练结束后，你应该继续思考： “我哪些方面做得好？ 哪些方面做得不好？ 如何改进那些已经做得很好的地方？”

John: I can,

约翰: 没错，

Lex: I ask about something that I truly enjoy, and I think is really powerful, but most people don’t seem to believe in that, but it’s drilling. I don’t know, maybe people are different, but I love the idea, maybe even outside of Jiu-Jitsu, of doing the same thing over and over. It’s like Jiro Dreams of Sushi. I love doing the thing, uh, that nobody wants to do, and doing it 10 times, 100 times, 1,000 times more than what nobody wants to do. So I’m a huge fan of drilling. Obviously, I’m not a professional athlete, but I feel like if I actually gave myself, if I wanted to be really good at Jiu-Jitsu, like reach the level of being in the top 25 when I was much younger, like really strive, I think I could achieve it by drilling.

莱克斯: 我接下来想谈谈“钻研”，我个人非常喜欢“钻研”，我认为它非常有效，但大多数人似乎并不认同。 我不知道是不是每个人的想法都一样，但我喜欢一遍又一遍地重复做同一件事，就像纪录片《寿司之神》中小野二郎那样。 我喜欢做那些别人不愿意做的事情，并且比别人多做十倍、一百倍、一千倍。 我非常喜欢“钻研”。 虽然我不是职业运动员，但我相信，如果我年轻的时候能够坚持“钻研”，我一定能够进入世界排名前 25。

John: Hmm. That’s, I had this belief, untested. Can you challenge this idea or, or first off, fascinating, however we’re going to have to disagree.

约翰: 嗯，我以前也这样想过，但没有经过验证。 你能说说你的理由吗？ 虽然你的想法很有意思，但我不得不反对。

Lex: No.

莱克斯: 好的。

John: No, okay. Um, we’re just going to have to start to understand what are we talking about when we talk about drilling. It’s a very vague term, okay? If you’re at this moment, many of your listeners are probably seen, having the same thought process, which is, “A drilling? Yeah, I know what that is. We go into the gym and we pick a move, and we practice it for a certain number of repetitions, and if I do that, I’m going to get better at the technique.” Okay? Um, they’re wrong. We’ve got to have a much more in-depth understanding of what the hell we’re talking about when we talk about drilling. Ultimately, any movement in the gym that doesn’t improve the skills you already have or build new skills is a waste of time, a waste of resources. Everything you do should be done with the aim and the understanding that this is going to make me better at the sport I practice. If it’s not, it shouldn’t be there. The majority of what passes for drilling in most training halls will not make you better, including some of the most cherished forms of drilling which is repetition for numbers. The moment you say to someone, “I want you to do this a hundred times,” what are they really thinking about? Volume. They’re saying, “Okay, I’m at repetition 78, I’m at 80, 20 more to go.” All they talk, their primary thought process, is on numbers. That’s not the point of drilling, the point is skill acquisition. When people drill, don’t get them focused on numbers, get them focused on mechanics. That’s what they have to worry about. I never have my students drill for, for numbers, ever. Just, “One, two, three, get the fuck out of here. Are you kidding me? Like how are you gonna get better with that?” Okay? Get them working on the sense of gaining knowledge. That’s my job. I have to give them knowledge, I have to explain to them what they’re trying to do. That starts them on the right track. But knowledge is one thing, skill is another. If Jiu-Jitsu was just about knowledge, then all the 60 and 70 year old red belts would be the world champions. They’re not.

约翰: 我们首先要明确“钻研”的含义，因为它是一个很 vague 的词。 现在很多人都认为“钻研”就是去健身房，选择一个动作，然后重复练习很多次，他们以为只要这样就能提高技术水平。 但他们错了，我们需要对“钻研”有一个更深刻的理解。 任何不能提高你的现有技能或建立新技能的动作都是浪费时间和精力。 你所做的每一个练习都应该有明确的目标，并且你应该明白这个练习能够如何帮助你提高技术水平。 如果一个练习对你没有帮助，就不应该做它。 大多数训练馆里所谓的“钻研”都不会让你变得更强，包括那种最常见的，为了完成数量而进行的机械性重复练习。 当你告诉一个人“做一百次这个动作”时，他们想的只是如何完成数量，而不是如何提高技术。 他们会不断地计数：“我已经做了 78 次，80 次，还差 20 次”。 他们的注意力完全集中在数字上，而不是技术的细节。 “钻研”的目的不是完成数量，而是掌握技能。 所以，在进行“钻研”时，不要让学生关注数量，而要让他们关注技术的细节和原理。 我从来不会让我的学生为了完成数量而进行“钻研”。 我会告诉他们：“做一两次，然后停下来思考，你这样机械地重复，技术水平怎么可能提高？” 我的工作是传授知识，让他们明白他们正在练习的技术的原理，并引导他们找到正确的练习方法。 但知识和技能是两回事，如果巴西柔术只需要知识就能学会，那么所有那些六七十岁的老红带就都是世界冠军了，但事实并非如此。

Lex: Isn’t one,

莱克斯: 难道不是，

John: By knowledge, it’s one by skill. Knowledge is the first step in building skill. So my job as a coach is to transmit knowledge. Then I have to create training programs, with a path from knowledge to polished skill is carried out. That’s the interface between me and my students. And so, I give them drills where the whole emphasis is upon getting a sense where they understand what are the problems they’re trying to solve and working towards practical solutions. They never work with numbers, they work with mechanics and feel. Then you have to bring in the idea of progression. When you drill, there’s zero resistance. When you fight in competition, there’s 100% resistance. You can’t go from zero to 100, there has to be progress over time, where I have them work in drills with slightly increasing increments of resistance. And just as we talked about earlier with the weightlifter who doesn’t start with 500 pounds but who begins with the bar, and then over time builds the skills that one day, out there in the future, he will lift 500 pounds, so too that juji gatame that you’re working on today is feeble and pathetic, but five years from now, you’ll win a world championship with it. You can’t have this naive idea of drilling, “It’s something you just come out, you randomly pick a move, and you work for numbers until you satisfy a certain set of numbers that your coach threw at you, and then think you’re going to get better.” There’s even dangers with drilling. There is no performance increase that comes once you get to a certain level, and you just keep doing the same damn thing. Let’s say, for example, you come out and you hit a hundred repetitions of the armbar juji gatame from guard position and you’re all proud of yourself because you hit 100 repetitions, and your body’s tired, and you’re telling yourself, “Man, I got a good workout.” And you come in tomorrow, you do exactly the same thing. You come in the day after that, and a week goes by, and you’ve done the same thing. Then a year later you do the same thing. Ask yourself, “Has your juji gatame really gotten better?” No. You’ve performed literally thousands and thousands of repetitions, you have spent an enormous amount of training time and energy that could have gone in different directions, on something which didn’t make you any better. Drills have diminishing returns. Once you get to a certain skill level, if you just keep hammering on the same thing, in the same fashion, for the same amount of time, you stop getting better.

约翰: 知识是技能的基础，知识是构建技能的第一步。 我作为教练的职责就是传授知识，然后制定训练计划，帮助学生将知识转化为熟练的技能。 这就是我和学生之间沟通的桥梁。 所以，我设计的 drills 都是为了让学生理解他们要解决的问题，并引导他们找到解决问题的办法。 他们不需要关注数量，而是要关注技术的原理和感觉。 然后你需要引入“渐进式”的概念。 在练习 drills 时，对手是没有抵抗的，但在实战中，对手会全力抵抗。 你不可能一下子从 0 跳到 100，你需要循序渐进地提高抵抗强度。 就像我们之前说的举重运动员，他不会一开始就尝试举起 500 磅的重量，而是从空杠铃开始，逐渐增加重量，直到有一天能够举起 500 磅。 你今天练习的十字固可能很弱，但五年后，你就能用它赢得世界冠军。 你不能天真地以为“钻研”就是随便选择一个动作，然后机械地重复练习，直到完成教练规定的数量，就以为自己的技术水平提高了。 这种“钻研”方式不仅没有效果，甚至还有害。 当你达到一定水平后，如果你只是重复着同样的练习，你的技术水平就不会再提高。 比如，你今天练习了 100 次十字固，你感到很自豪，因为你完成了 100 次重复，你的身体很疲惫，你觉得自己完成了一次很好的训练。 但如果你明天、后天，甚至一年后，都重复着同样的练习，你的十字固真的会进步吗？ 不会。 你只是机械地重复了成千上万次，浪费了大量的时间和精力，却没有取得任何实质性的进步。 Drills 的效果会随着练习次数的增加而递减，当你达到一定水平后，如果你只是重复着同样的练习，你的技术水平就会停滞不前。

Lex: Can I, partially for fun, partially for, devil’s advocate, but partially because I actually believe this, to push back on some points. Is it possible, so everything you said I think is beautiful and correct, but the asking yourself the question, “Am I getting better?”, is a really important one, and you could do that in training. Is there a set of techniques, maybe a small subset of all the techniques that are in Jiu-Jitsu, where you can have significant skill acquisition if you put in the numbers or the time, whatever, on a technique, against an opponent who’s not resisting? Here’s, let me elaborate. What I’ve in my, maybe I’m different, you’ll probably have to finish an example.

莱克斯: 我接下来要反驳你的一些观点，部分原因是为了好玩，部分原因是为了扮演“魔鬼代言人”，但主要原因是我真的相信我的观点。 你刚才说的都很有道理，但“我是否正在进步”是一个非常重要的问题，你可以在训练中找到答案。 在巴西柔术中，是否存在一些技术，也许只是一小部分，可以通过大量的重复练习来掌握，即使对手没有抵抗？ 我举个例子，也许我的情况比较特殊，

John: Yes.

约翰: 请讲。

Lex: Let me first make a general statement, and I can give examples. The general statement is I found that through repetitions, and this is high repetitions, combined with training, but high repetitions against a non-resisting opponent, I’ve gotten to understand the way my body moves, the way I apply pressure on a human, because it’s not actually zero resistance. The opponent’s still laying there. They’re still keeping their legs up, they’re still doing, they might not be resisting, but they’re still creating a structure.

莱克斯: 我先说一个 general statement，然后再举几个例子。 我发现，通过大量的重复练习，尤其是针对没有抵抗的对手进行练习，我能够更加了解自己的身体是如何移动的，以及如何对对手施加压力。 因为即使对手没有抵抗，也不代表完全没有阻力，他们仍然躺在那里，仍然保持着一定的姿势，他们的身体仍然会形成一个结构。

John: Yes. They’re presenting a target.

约翰: 没错，他们仍然在为你提供一个练习的目标。

Lex: Yes, it’s not dynamic so you can’t master the timing of things, but you can master, the not master, but I felt like I could gain an understanding of how to apply pressure to the human body over thousands of repetitions. Now, for example, i just, just to give you an example, to, to know what we’re talking about, uh, there’s a guy named uh, like Lachlan Giles and Craig Jones, that have this, I guess, the uh, I already forgot, but the headquarters position, or something like that, but putting pressure as you pass guard. Uh, like medium passing distance, kind of, pressure. I’ve did thousands of repetitions of that to understand what, what putting pressure with my hips feels like, to truly understand that movement. I felt like I was getting much better. It’s, it’s hard to put into words, but that skill acquisition is, it’s so subtle, just the way you turn your little like hips.

莱克斯: 没错，这种练习不是动态的，所以你无法掌握实战中的时机，但我感觉我可以通过成千上万次的重复练习，来理解如何对人体施加压力。 比如拉克兰·贾尔斯和克雷格·琼斯经常使用的一种技术，我忘记了它的名字，好像是叫“总部位置”，就是在你突破防守时用臀部对对手施加压力。 我曾经做过成千上万次这种练习，去感受如何用臀部发力，去真正理解这种 movement。 我感觉我的技术进步了很多，虽然很难用语言来描述，但这种进步是 real 的，它体现在一些非常 subtle 的细节上，比如转动臀部的方式。

John: But you’re already talking about a better form of drilling now. You’re going beyond the basic numbers, and you’re getting the sense of feel and mechanics, which is what we want in drilling. But,

约翰: 你说的已经不是那种简单的重复练习了，你已经开始关注技术的细节和感觉，而这正是我所说的“钻研”。 但是，

Lex: The reason I say numbers, and maybe you can speak to this, but the, this might be an OCD thing, but it, it allows you to take a journey that doesn’t just last a week, or two weeks, but a journey where you stay with the technique for two, three years, and there’s a dedication to it, where it’s a long-term commitment to where you’re forcing yourself, perhaps there’s other mechanisms, but you’re forcing yourself to stay with a technique longer than most people around you are staying with whatever they’re working on, and you’re taking that long journey. And the numbers somehow enforce that persistence and that dedication.

莱克斯: 我之所以强调数量，是因为它能够让我坚持练习一项技术更长的时间，这可能是我个人的强迫症在作祟。 它让我能够坚持练习两三年，而不是只有一两周。 这是一项长期的 commitment，我强迫自己坚持下去，也许还有其他原因，但我确实强迫自己坚持练习一项技术的时间，要比其他人坚持练习任何技术的时间都要长。 数字能够帮助我保持这种 persistence 和 dedication。

John: Um, first thing, that journey is a wonderful thing. And if that technique is a a crucial part of what you do then it’s time well invested, but always understand that it comes at an opportunity cost, that by spending that amount of time on that one technique you’ve sacrificed other things that you could have learned, that could have won your matches. So understand that every focus upon one element of the game comes at the opportunity cost of other elements. Um, now, as long as you’re playing a part of the game where, “Okay, this is central to what I do,” yes, okay, that’s fine, but, um, just be aware of the danger of opportunity cost. That’s something no one talks about in the training room, but it becomes very important. Secondly, the other question you have to start asking yourself is, “Okay, that training clearly had benefits for you early on,” but “when the point of diminishing returns starts coming” and if you feel you’re just doing the same thing, then it’s time to switch. Now, if you feel you’re still getting benefit from it, by all means continue. That will be a call on your part. You’re, you’ve been playing this game a long time now, so I would trust your call on that. But my job as a coach is to look out and say, “Okay, this kid’s been working ashi garami for six months, and I feel he’s gotten to a good skill level. If he stays any further on it, the opportunity cost becomes greater than the expected benefits of continuing it.” And that’s my job as a coach, is to direct things in that fashion. If I can do a good job with that, then I can take them to the next level of drilling and start amping it up, and that’s how I keep progress over time. My biggest fear is to have students run past the point of diminishing returns, staying stagnant where opportunity cost comes in, and they’re not making the progress they could in the time that they’ve been working.

约翰: 首先，我认为你能够坚持长时间练习一项技术，这非常棒。 如果这项技术对你来说非常重要，那么你投入的时间就是值得的。 但你要明白，任何选择都是有“机会成本”的，你把时间花在一项技术上，就意味着你放弃了学习其他技术的机会，而那些技术可能能够帮助你赢得比赛。 所以，当你专注于练习某一项技术时，要意识到你可能错过了学习其他技术的机会。 “机会成本”是一个很少有人会在训练中谈论的概念，但它非常重要。 其次，你需要思考另一个问题：这项技术在早期阶段可能对你的帮助很大，但随着练习时间的增加，它的“边际效益”会逐渐递减。 如果你感觉自己一直在原地踏步，那就应该尝试学习其他技术。 当然，如果你觉得这项技术对你仍然有帮助，那就继续练习，这取决于你自己。 你已经练习了很长时间，我相信你的判断。 但我作为教练的职责是观察和引导学生，我会告诉他们：“你已经练习 ashi garami 六个月了，你的技术已经很不错了，如果你继续练习下去，‘机会成本’会超过你继续练习所能获得的收益”。 我的工作就是帮助他们找到最优的训练方案，引导他们进入下一个阶段，学习新的技术，不断进步。 我最担心的是，学生们在“边际效益”递减的情况下仍然坚持练习同一项技术，最终导致技术停滞不前，浪费了宝贵的训练时间。

Lex: I mean, that was, it was almost a philosophical question for me. That’s what I was always in a search on because I know my mind is, uh, likes drilling. I don’t like relying on other people for improvement. And drilling allows me to do something that, that, that is, percent, most interesting, Lex. “But you say you don’t like relying on other people on drilling, but in drilling you really do rely a lot on your partner.”

莱克斯: 这对我来说是一个 philosophical question，我一直在思考这个问题，因为我个人很喜欢“钻研”，不喜欢依靠别人来提高技术水平。 “钻研”可以让我独立地去探索，去，嗯， （约翰打断莱克斯） 你说你不喜欢在“钻研”中依赖别人，但实际上，你在“钻研”时也非常依赖你的训练伙伴。

John: One of the first things I do when I coach people is, I teach them how to drill, like that’s a skill in itself. And, um, drilling is in a sense the opposite of sparring. Drilling is a cooperative venture, where you work as dance partners, complementing each other’s movement. If I drill with Gordon Ryan and I want him to work armbars, I will move my body in ways which make it an interesting exercise for Gordon. Um, I’m not just sitting there and he does a repetition, and I’m, “Okay, he does 10, um, I can’t wait for this to be over so I can do my 10, and I can’t wait for all the spars so we can just spar and get over with all this bullshit.” Um, that’s the sad truth of most drilling in Jiu-Jitsu. Um, there’s a sense in which, when good people drill, it’s like watching good people dance. They move in unison and complement each other’s movement and make each other look better. Sparring, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of that. That’s resistance, where you’re trying to make the other person look as bad as possible. And once you understand the different directions in which drilling and sparring go, that’s when things start getting interesting. You start getting fast progress, yeah.

约翰: 我在指导学生时，首先要教他们如何进行“钻研”，因为这本身就是一项需要学习的技能。 “钻研”和“实战”在某种程度上是相反的。 “钻研”是一种合作练习，双方要像舞伴一样互相配合，互相补充对方的动作。 如果我和戈登·瑞恩一起练习“钻研”，我希望他练习十字固，那么我会配合他的动作，让他能够更好地练习这项技术。 我不会只是站在那里，看着他做完十次重复练习，然后想着“终于轮到我了”。 我也不会敷衍了事，心里想着“快点结束这些无聊的 drills，赶紧开始实战吧”。 这正是大多数人对“钻研”的错误理解，他们把它当成了一种枯燥乏味的练习。 而真正的“钻研”就像是一场精彩的双人舞蹈，双方默契配合，互相成就，共同进步。 而“实战”则完全相反，它是对抗性的练习，你想要尽一切努力去击败对手，让他出丑。 当你理解了“钻研”和“实战”的不同方向，你就会发现训练的乐趣，你的技术也会快速提高。

Lex: Just, uh, you’re absolutely right. I, i think I was not very eloquent describing what I mean. I found myself not able to find in Jiu-Jitsu too many people that are willing to dedicate a huge amount of time to a particular technique.

莱克斯: 你说的太对了，我刚才没有表达清楚我的意思。 我发现，在巴西柔术练习者中，很少有人愿意花大量时间去“钻研”某一项技术。

John: I concur with you on that, Lex.

约翰: 莱克斯，我同意你的观点。

Lex: Now, answer the interesting question: why, why can’t you get people to drill with you? By the way, if I could just shout out the people that did drill with me is usually blue belt women, because they’re smaller. They don’t like training, because they get their ass kicked, because they’re much smaller, so they’re willing to improve it, invest significant amount of effort into, uh, um, into training. That’s, that’s good,

莱克斯: 那么，你能回答一个有趣的问题吗？ 为什么你找不到人和你一起“钻研”？ 顺便说一句，那些愿意和我一起“钻研”的，通常都是蓝带的女生，因为她们体型比较小，在实战中经常被虐，所以她们更愿意花时间和精力去提高技术水平。 这很好，

John: But their motivation for doing so is not good.

约翰: 但她们这样做的动机并不纯粹。

Lex: Well, yes, but your motivation for drilling is because you don’t want to get your ass kicked. No good black belt ever. I could never find a black belt that I could drill with like this. This, the, uh, now let’s go back to that question: why?

莱克斯: 你说的没错，但我的动机也是为了避免在实战中被虐。 没有哪个黑带选手会喜欢这种练习方式。 我从来没找到过愿意和我一起这样“钻研”的黑带选手。 所以，回到刚才的问题，为什么？

John: I don’t, I mean this, i, I am somebody who likes to say nice things about people. So, let me, let me answer for you.

约翰: 我这个人不喜欢说别人的坏话，所以，让我来替你回答吧。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 好的。

John: Two reasons: because they find it boring.

约翰: 有两个原因：第一，他们觉得“钻研”很无聊。

Lex: Yes.

莱克斯: 没错。

John: And secondly, perhaps more importantly, they don’t believe it works.

约翰: 第二，也许更重要的是，他们不相信“钻研”有效。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 没错。

John: Those are good answers. And now let’s go further and ask the truly interesting question: why do they believe that?

约翰: 你说得对。 那么，更深层次的问题是，为什么他们会这样认为？

Lex: If I were to answer it in the context of Russian wrestling, where drilling is much bigger part, is I think culturally that was knowledge that everybody tells each other in Jiu-Jitsu, that, uh, drilling doesn’t work. Because they’re never taught how to drill, no one ever sits you down one day and says, “Okay, this is how you drill,” and so the exercise feels futile. They don’t feel the skill level is going up, they don’t associate drilling with increased skill level, they associate sparring with increased skill level, but not drilling, which is a tragedy because it is a fantastic way to introduce and expand the repertoire of a developing student. It’s an essential part of every workout I teach. I always say that game of Jiu-Jitsu begins with knowledge and builds up to skill. Who wins is the one who has greater skill, and nine times out of 10. Um, so to me, it’s a tragedy that what you’re saying, breaks my heart to hear that you couldn’t get a black belt to drill with you. That’s, that’s shameful and i, but I understand, i i i sympathize with those black belts, too, because the way in which most people are told to drill does feel ineffective, and it is damn boring. They’d rather just spar, they feel like they get more out of the workout, and that’s, that’s, if anything, an indictment upon most of the training programs around the nation.

莱克斯: 如果从俄罗斯摔跤的角度来解释，因为“钻研”在俄罗斯摔跤中占据着非常重要的地位，我认为巴西柔术练习者之所以不相信“钻研”有效，是因为他们没有被正确地引导，没有人告诉他们该如何进行“钻研”。 所以他们会觉得“钻研”很 futile，感觉不到自己的技术水平在提高。 他们认为只有实战才能提高技术水平，而“钻研”只是浪费时间，这真的很可惜。 因为“钻研”是帮助学生学习新技术，扩展技术体系的最佳方式。 “钻研”是我所有训练课程中不可或缺的一部分。 我总是说，巴西柔术从知识开始，最终要落实到技能上。 在大多数情况下，技术更强的选手会赢得比赛。 所以，听到你找不到黑带和你一起“钻研”，我感到很难过。 这是巴西柔术界的一种耻辱。 但我理解他们的想法，我也同情他们，因为大多数人所接触到的“钻研”方式确实很 low-efficiency，而且非常 boring。 他们更愿意把时间花在实战上，因为他们觉得实战的收获更大。 这说明，全国大多数的训练计划都存在着缺陷。

John: I would say that the sport of Jiu-Jitsu, particularly in America, has gone through a number of phases in terms of its development. In the early years, when there was very little instructional material available, most training programs emphasized drilling, which is understandable. When there’s no other sources of information you have to come up with things yourself, so you pick a move, you break it down into details, and you drill those details, which is fine when you have nothing else to go with. But then you had the advent of the internet age, with YouTube, with all kinds of instructional material freely available, and that changed everything. People could literally go online and see the very best people performing moves at the very highest level, and they said, “Why should I drill when I can watch Gordon Ryan hit a heel hook on YouTube?” Okay. And so, drilling went into a, into a long period of decline, as people shifted their focus into just watching and emulating what they saw. And that, that’s all well and good but it ignores one very, very important thing: that the human mind is actually very poor at replicating movement. You know, uh, for example, you, you’re probably a huge fan of LeBron James, right?

约翰: 我想说的是，巴西柔术，尤其是在美国，它的发展经历了几个阶段。 在早期，因为缺乏教学资料，所以大多数训练计划都强调“钻研”。 当没有其他信息来源时，你就只能自己去摸索，去分解动作，去练习细节。 这在当时是合理的做法。 但后来互联网时代来临了，YouTube 上有各种各样的教学视频，这改变了一切。 人们可以在网上看到最顶尖的选手是如何完成技术的，他们会想：“既然我可以在 YouTube 上观看戈登·瑞恩的足跟勾，为什么还要花时间去‘钻研’呢？” 所以，“钻研”逐渐被人们忽视了，他们更愿意去模仿他们所看到的东西。 这种做法无可厚非，但它忽略了一个非常重要的事实：人类的大脑实际上并不擅长复制动作。 比如，你是勒布朗·詹姆斯的粉丝吧？

Lex: I’m, I am. I admire. Yes, of course.

莱克斯: 是的，我很喜欢他，非常 admire 他。

John: Now, you, I’m sure, you’ve watched him play basketball thousands of times, but can you go out there and hit a, hit a jump shot with the same efficiency that LeBron James can? No. Of course not. Why? Because seeing something and doing something are two different things. The human mind is good at coming up with general guidelines to action, what we call heuristics, but very poor at replicating fine motor skill movement. And so, what happened was that this internet age created this false dichotomy between drilling versus learning through observation, and they’re not separate. They have to be brought together. You see the best people doing moves at the highest levels, but then you have to break those moves down in your own individual training program, with an understanding of what are the problems you’re trying to solve, and work towards solutions with drills that are designed to refine your own understanding, your own mechanics, and your own feel for the moves. And that’s something you just don’t get by simply watching someone else. It’s, it’s literally the story of the juxtaposition between knowledge versus skill. Knowledge is what your coach gives you, what you get online, but skills what you build in the gym, and without drilling, you just don’t have a satisfactory interface between those two, and as a result, I see a generation of athletes who are very knowledgeable, but very unskilled. You know, uh, and that, to me, is just a tragedy. They have all the information in the world, literally at their fingertips, but they have no way of turning that information into polished skill. They watch the moves, they copy them, they, they don’t even understand what they’re copying half the time, they try them in sparring, they fail, they don’t know why they failed, they move on to something else. You can’t build a career like that. There has to be an understanding that “okay, I’m seeing this being done at the highest level, but how do I make this a part of my game?” That’s where drilling comes in.

约翰: 我相信你看过他打球几千次了，但你能像他一样投篮吗？ 当然不能。 为什么？ 因为“看”和“做”是两回事。 人类的大脑擅长总结经验，形成一些指导行动的 general guidelines，也就是我们所说的 heuristics，但它并不擅长复制精细的运动技能。 互联网时代让人们产生了一种错觉，认为“钻研”和“观察学习”是对立的，但实际上它们是相辅相成的。 你可以观看顶级选手是如何完成技术的，但你必须将这些技术分解到自己的训练计划中，理解你要解决的问题是什么，然后通过 drills 来不断完善你的理解、你的技术细节和你的感觉。 这些东西是无法通过简单的模仿来获得的。 这就是知识和技能的区别。 知识是教练教给你的，或者你从网上学到的东西，而技能是你通过训练获得的。 如果没有“钻研”，你就无法将知识转化为技能。 我看到很多年轻运动员，他们掌握了大量的知识，但缺乏实战技能。 他们可以轻松地获取各种信息，但他们不知道如何将这些信息转化为熟练的技能。 他们只是机械地模仿他们所看到的动作，甚至不明白自己在模仿什么，然后在实战中失败，却不知道自己为什么失败，最终放弃了这项技术。 如果你想成为一名优秀的运动员，就必须明白，看到顶级选手是如何完成技术的只是第一步，更重要的是，如何将这些技术融入到自己的技术体系中。 这就是“钻研”的意义所在。

Lex: Would you say that drilling, if you were to build a black belt world champion, would drilling be what percent of their training, in the entirety of their career, would be drilling?

莱克斯: 如果你要培养一个黑带世界冠军，你认为“钻研”应该占他们训练时间的多少比例？

John: Good, great question. Um, let’s first put a proviso on it that i, I don’t do the same thing for all athletes. Everyone’s got a different personality and like Nicky Rod, I can only hold his attention for two minutes at a time, and, uh, Gary Tonon, um, five minutes. Uh, Gordon Ryan, five hours. Like, uh, George St-Pierre, five hours. They are just laser focused. So everyone’s different. Let’s put that down as our first proviso. Um, uh, you probably knew those answers already.

约翰: 这是一个很好的问题。 首先我要说明一点，我不会对所有运动员都采用相同的训练方法，因为每个人的性格都不一样。 比如尼基·罗德，他一次最多只能集中注意力两分钟；加里·托农是五分钟；戈登·瑞恩和乔治·圣皮埃尔可以连续集中注意力五个小时。 他们都非常专注，但每个人都不一样。 我们首先要明确这一点。 你可能已经知道他们的性格了。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 是的。

John: Um, that’s hilarious, but uh, as a general rule uh, if I run a 2 1/2-hour class, uh, you can expect an hour and a half of it to be, I’m going to use the word drilling, but I’m also going to say that this is too complex of a story to give now with words. I would need to demonstrate it, but the way in which we drill is not your standard method of drilling. And then it’s into sparring. But if you give me a choice between a bad drilling partner and sparring, I could make the same choice that most black belts make: without, “Go with sparring,” because you can create drilling with it. Like, good drilling is a wonderful thing. Bad drilling is just a worthless waste of time, okay?

约翰: 哈哈，这很有意思。 一般来说，我的课程是两个半小时，其中大约一个半小时是“钻研”。 但我很难用语言来描述我们是如何进行“钻研”的，我需要实际演示给你看，因为我们“钻研”的方式和一般的“钻研”不一样。 剩下的时间是实战。 如果你让我在“糟糕的钻研伙伴”和“实战”之间选择，我会和大多数黑带一样，选择“实战”。 因为你可以在实战中进行“钻研”。 好的“钻研”非常有效，但糟糕的“钻研”只是在浪费时间。

Lex: Before I have a million questions for you, but I have to ask: can you, we’ve described the fundamentals of Jiu-Jitsu, can we describe the principles, the fundamentals, of one of the interesting systems you’ve developed, which is the leg lock system.

莱克斯: 我还有很多问题想问你，但首先我想问一个问题：我们之前已经讨论了巴西柔术的基本原理，你能解释一下你所创立的腿锁体系的基本原理吗？

John: Yeah, anything in particular or just like a general,

约翰: 你想了解哪些方面？ 是具体的技术，还是，

Lex: Understand what are some of the major principles of it.

莱克斯: 我想了解它的一些主要原则。

John: Well, it’s like me coming to, uh, Miyamoto Musashi and asking, “Can you describe the principles of sword fighting?”

约翰: 这就像你跑去问宫本武藏：“你能解释一下剑术的原理吗？”

Lex: You’re too generous, um, let’s start off with some context. Um, when I began the sport of Jiu-Jitsu, I was taught a fairly classical approach to, uh, Jiu-Jitsu, which leg locks were a part of it, but not an emphasized part of it. Um, the overall culture of the times, is the mid-1990s. The overall culture of the time saw leg locks as, uh, largely ineffective. It was, we were told that against good opposition they just didn’t work very well. They were low percentage techniques. We were also told that they were tactically unsound, because if you ever attempted them and you lost control of the leg lock, your opponent would end up on top of you, or in some kind of good position, and you’d be in terrible trouble. Um, and we’re also told that they were unsafe, that, uh, if they were applied in the gym there’d be far too many injuries, and people would be badly hurt. And that was the received wisdom of that time, and so i, I didn’t even would work with them at all. And, uh, they would be shown occasionally in the gym, and you’d learn them, you drill them, and, but inspiring, I showed no interest. Um, you probably know that change when I met the, the great American grappler Dean Lister, who uh, early in his career was using Achilles locks with considerable success.

莱克斯: 你过奖了。 我先介绍一下背景。 我刚开始练习巴西柔术的时候，学习的是一种比较传统的训练方法，腿锁虽然也包括在内，但并不被重视。 在 20 世纪 90 年代中期，人们普遍认为腿锁是一种低效的技术，很难在实战中奏效，而且在战术上也不合理。 因为一旦你尝试使用腿锁，但却没有成功控制对手，你的对手就会反过来压制你，让你陷入非常不利的局面。 人们还认为腿锁很不安全，如果在训练中使用，会造成很多伤病。 这就是当时人们对腿锁的普遍看法，所以我很排斥腿锁，甚至从来不去练习它。 虽然道馆里偶尔也会有人教授腿锁技术，但我对此毫无兴趣。 直到后来，我遇到了美国著名格斗家迪恩·利斯特，他早年曾经用跟腱锁取得过很多胜利，这让我对腿锁的看法发生了改变。

John: I met him in the gym. Wonderful fellow. And, um,

约翰: 我在健身房见过他，他是一个很棒的人。 嗯，

Lex: I give these locks, as like a straightforward,

莱克斯: 他把跟腱锁，作为一种直接的，

John: Yes, that’s correct.

约翰: 没错。

Lex: Yes. And, um, uh, he went on to become a heel hooker and win ADCC’s later on in his career, but we never met again after, after that. And, uh, that opened some doors of inquiry, and, uh, well he asked this first principles question: “Is, why would you only use half the body in a game which?” Makes, a human body, perfect sense. So, that opened doors to, to inquiry, and if you looked around the Jiu-Jitsu world at that time, um, the number of specialized leg lockers was very small, and most of them were from outside of conventional Jiu-Jitsu. For example, you could look around and see people like, Rumina Sato had sharp leg locks for that time period in the 1990s. Um, so they were out there, they existed. And, uh, you’d see people like Ken Shamrock would, would use, uh, heel hooks in competition, and he had some, some good success with them. When I began experimenting with the, in the gym, fairly soon certain truths started to become evident, and the most important of these can be understood very quickly, and they were relatively easy to discover. The first was that most people, when they went to understand and study leg locking, and when I talk about leg locking I’m going to talk about one specific type, which is the most high-percentage type. This is leg locks which are performed with entanglements of your opponent’s legs with your legs. There are other forms of leg lock, but these are relatively low percentage and don’t figure heavily in competition, so I’ll, I’ll ignore them. Most people made no distinction between the mechanism of control versus the mechanism of breaking. The heel hook is what ultimately breaks the, the ankle, but the mechanism of control is the entanglement of your legs to your opponent’s legs. The Japanese term, ashi garami, literally just means like leg entanglement. It’s a generic term, it could apply to any form of entanglement. There are many options. My idea was, let’s focus on the entanglement first and worry about the breaking mechanism second. This was analogous to the idea of “position before submission,” only you couldn’t talk about it in terms of conventional positions, because ashi garami doesn’t really fit into the traditional hierarchies, positional hierarchies, of Jiu-Jitsu. So, the, the, the conversation was switched from “position to submission” to “control to submission.” Now, wrapping two of your legs around one of your opponent’s legs gives you many different options. You can do it with your feet on the outside, so-called 50/50 variations. You can do it with your feet on the inside, and, um, form what we call inside foot position. Um, there’s pros and cons to both. There’s also methods of harmonizing the two so you have one foot on the inside and one foot on the outside. You can do it with a straight, uh, leg, where you heel hook from the outside, or you can bring the leg across your center line and heel hook from the inside. You will start to notice, as you work through these different variations that some present advantages over others. All of them come at a price to some degree. Regardless of which ashi garami option you use, there will be some degree of foot exposure on my part to my opponent and some degree of back exposure on my part relative to my opponent. So that’s the downside of it. Variations within those different ashi garami enable you to lessen danger in some respects and, at the price of gaining dangers in others. So, you get this wider array of choices. There’s not this kind of simplistic hierarchy that you see in the basic positions of you, but there are hierarchies. I do, for example, generally favor inside heel hooks over outside heel hooks. If I feel my opponent is very good at exposing my back while I’m in ashi garami, I generally prefer 50/50 situations. If I believe my opponent is very good at counter leg locks, I generally prefer my feet on the inside, working with variations of, uh, inside sankaku, et cetera, et cetera. So, there are broad heuristic rules that we can give to, to work in these situations. Once you start to understand there’s a variety of entanglements you can use, then you start getting to the really interesting ideas that, as you perform one given attack, one given heel hook, you can flow through different forms of ashi garami where you can create new dangers and avoid possible, uh, pitfalls in a very short time frame, as you switch from one ashi garami to another over time. So that, as your opponent’s lines of resistance to an initial attack change, you can accommodate those by switching to another form of ashi garami so that your mechanism of control is always pointing in opposite directions of his escape. And if you focus on this idea of control through the legs, you can completely change the nature of leg locking and take it away from what it was in the 1990s: an opportunistic method of attack based upon surprise, speed, and power, into one based on control. If you can do this, you can undermine many of the basic criticisms of leg locking, which were prevalent when I began the sport of Jiu-Jitsu. For example, if I can completely control and immobilize you, I can perform the lock very, very safely. If my only way of breaking your leg is to be faster and more powerful than you, nine times out of 10, when I apply it, I’m going to hurt your leg, as much by accident as anything. But if I can completely immobilize you, and as every attempt you make to escape, I can follow you and immobilize you in new directions, then I can apply the, the lock with as much force or as little force as possible. And so, you’ll see, in our training room, despite over considerably more than, um, two decades, sorry, a decade and a half now of heel hooking, using these methods, the number of people severely injured by heel hooks is, is tiny. Like, um, I would say I’ve seen more people injured by far by kimuras in the time I’ve been training that I have by heel hooks, despite them having a similar twisting dynamic to them. If you build a culture where people focus on control rather than speed of execution, then the injury rate goes down appreciably. The whole idea of positional loss. Everyone was critically critical of leg locks: “Now, if you go for leg locks, and they don’t work, well now you’re in trouble. The guy’s going to be on top of you.” They never make that criticism with armbars, okay? You can be in the mounted position, go for an armbar, end up on bottom, lose the armbar, and lose position, but I’ve never heard anyone criticize armbars on that account. More importantly, I believed from early on that the best place to attack leg locks is not top position, it’s bottom position. You’ll see that over 90% of my athletes attack leg locks from underneath people, not on top of people. So there is no positional loss. You’re already underneath them. And so that criticism was null and void. And by focusing on this idea of breaking down and distinguishing between the mechanism of control and the mechanism of breaking, that created something new and something interesting. There was also another advantage that I had in terms of creating influence with leg locking. When you look at the great leg lockers of the past, they, they were basically iconoclasts. They were people who came out of nowhere, who just had this remarkable success with leg locks, but they were just seen as unique individuals. They had their game, and they were good at it.

莱克斯: 没错，迪恩后来成为了一名“足跟勾”高手，并且在职业生涯后期赢得了 ADCC 冠军。 我们后来再也没有见过面。 他让我开始思考一些问题，他提出的那个 first principle question 是：“为什么在格斗比赛中，我们只使用一半的身体？” 这的确很有道理。 所以，我开始研究腿锁技术，当时在巴西柔术界，专门练习腿锁的人很少，而且大多数人都是从其他格斗体系转过来的，比如佐藤ルミナ，他在 20 世纪 90 年代就以精湛的腿锁技术而闻名。 也有一些人，比如肯·沙姆洛克，会在比赛中使用足跟勾，并且取得了一些不错的成绩。 我开始在训练中尝试使用腿锁，很快，我就发现了一些重要的规律，这些规律很容易理解，也很容易发现。 首先，大多数人在学习和练习腿锁时，都没有区分“控制”和“破坏”这两个机制。 “足跟勾”最终会折断对手的脚踝，但控制对手的关键在于如何用你的腿缠住对手的腿。 日语中有一个词叫做“足缠”，它的字面意思就是“腿部缠绕”，它可以用来描述任何形式的腿部缠绕。 有很多种“足缠”的方式，我的想法是，首先要关注“缠绕”，然后再考虑如何去“破坏”。 这就像“降服之前先控制位置”一样，只是“足缠”不属于传统的巴西柔术位置体系，所以不能用传统的术语来描述它。 因此，我把“位置-降服”的理念转换成了“控制-降服”的理念。 用你的两条腿缠住对手的一条腿，有很多种不同的选择。 你可以把脚放在外面，也就是所谓的“50/50”；也可以把脚放在里面，形成我们所说的“内侧足部位置”。 这两种方式各有利弊。 还有一种方法是将两种方式结合起来，一只脚放在里面，一只脚放在外面。 你也可以用伸直的腿从外侧做足跟勾，或者把腿穿过中心线从内侧做足跟勾。 当你练习了不同的变化之后，就会发现有些变化比其他变化更有效。 但所有的变化都是有代价的，无论你使用哪种“足缠”方式，你的脚和背部都会暴露在对手的攻击范围内。 这就是“足缠”的缺点。 不同的“足缠”变化可以让你在某些方面减少风险，但也可能会在其他方面增加风险。 所以，你需要根据不同的情况选择不同的变化。 在传统的巴西柔术位置体系中，没有这种简单的层次结构，但在“足缠”中，也存在着层次结构。 比如，我通常更喜欢内侧足跟勾，而不是外侧足跟勾。 如果对手很擅长在我使用“足缠”时攻击我的背部，我就会选择“50/50”；如果对手很擅长反制腿锁，我就会把脚放在里面，使用各种“内侧三角”的变化。 所以，针对不同的情况，我们可以制定一些通用的策略。 当你了解了不同的“缠绕”方式之后，你就会发现一些更有趣的理念。 比如，在使用足跟勾时，你可以根据对手的反应，在不同的“足缠”形式之间进行转换，从而创造新的进攻机会，并避免陷入陷阱。 你可以根据对手对初始攻击的反应，切换到不同的“足缠”形式，这样你的控制机制就能始终与对手的逃脱方向相反。 如果你专注于通过腿部控制来降服对手，你就可以彻底改变腿锁的本质，它不再是 20 世纪 90 年代那种依靠速度和力量的 opportunistic 攻击方式，而变成了一种依靠控制的攻击方式。 这样一来，你就可以消除人们对腿锁的很多误解，比如认为腿锁很容易造成伤病。 如果我能完全控制住你，我就能非常安全地完成降服。 如果我只能依靠速度和力量来折断你的腿，那么十次里面有九次都会造成严重的伤害。 但如果我能完全控制住你，并且在你每一次试图逃脱时，都能及时调整我的控制方式，那么我就能用最小的力量来完成降服，从而最大限度地减少受伤的风险。 你会发现，在我的道馆里，虽然我们已经练习足跟勾十几年了，但很少有人因此而受重伤。 我甚至可以说，我见过的因为 Kimura 锁而受伤的人，比因为足跟勾而受伤的人要多得多，尽管这两种技术都是通过旋转关节来完成降服。 如果你能够建立一种注重“控制”而不是“速度”的训练文化，那么受伤的概率就会大大降低。 说到“位置损失”，很多人都批评腿锁，他们认为：“如果你尝试使用腿锁，但却没有成功，那么你就麻烦了，因为你的对手会反过来压制你。” 但他们从来不会这样去批评十字固。 你可以在骑乘位置尝试使用十字固，但最终却因为失败而被对手翻到下位，并失去了位置优势，但我从来没有听到有人因此而批评十字固。 更重要的是，我很早就意识到，使用腿锁的最佳位置不是上位，而是下位。 你会发现，我的学生中有超过 90% 的人都是从下位使用腿锁的，而不是从上位。 所以不存在“位置损失”的问题，因为你本来就处于下位。 因此，这种批评是站不住脚的。 通过区分“控制”和“破坏”这两个机制，并专注于“控制”，我创造了一种全新的腿锁体系。 我在推广腿锁方面还有一个优势，那就是，过去那些伟大的腿锁高手，他们大多是特立独行的人，他们突然横空出世，用精湛的腿锁技术震惊了世界，但他们只是被视为天才，他们拥有自己的独特风格。

John: What was unique about the squad is you had not just one person, but a team of people who came out and did pretty much the same thing. These people had very different body types and very different personalities, so it wasn’t that one kind of body type was good at it. You had tall people, like Gordon Ryan, you had uh, short people like Nicky Ryan, you had someone in the middle like Gary Tonon, you had fast people like Gary Tonon, you had slow people like Gordon. Um, there were, there was every kind of body type involved.

约翰: 而我的团队的独特之处在于，我们不是只有一个 leg locker，而是一个团队，而且所有人的技术风格都非常相似。 他们的体型和性格各不相同，所以这不是因为某种体型更适合腿锁技术。 我们有像戈登·瑞恩这样的大高个，也有像尼基·瑞恩这样的小个子，还有像加里·托农这样中等身材的，有像加里·托农这样速度快的，也有像戈登这样速度慢的。 各种体型的选手都能够掌握我们的腿锁体系。

Lex: And it was like people could see this was different because it, it worked for an entire team as opposed to a unique individual who had unique attributes, and that started to foster the belief that if it can work for a team, it can work for anyone, which means it can work for me. And I think that had a big effect. That’s why I owe a lot to those early students, um, Gordon Ryan, Gary Tonon, Eddie Cummings, and uh, Nicky Ryan. There, it was those four kids came from nowhere. Um, uh, Gary had some success in grappling, like low-level success in grappling before, uh, before becoming a full-time member of the squad, but the others were just nobodies who no one had known. And yet, within a five-year time frame, they were all going up against world championship competition and doing exceedingly well, and which gives further credence the idea of the five-year program, and I think by operating as a team, those young men did an incredible job of convincing the grappling world that this wasn’t just about, “Well, they’re just different,” or their, “It works for their body type,” or, or them as individuals. It was like, “No. If a team can do it, anyone can do it.” And I think that’s what really convinced people that this was something worth studying, this is something that could be a big part of their lives.

莱克斯: 人们看到我的团队的成功，就会意识到，这套体系不是只适用于某一类人，而是适用于所有人，包括他们自己。 我认为这产生了很大的影响。 我非常感谢我早期的那些学生，比如戈登·瑞恩、加里·托农、埃迪·卡明斯和尼基·瑞恩。 他们四个都是从默默无闻中崛起的。 加里在加入我的团队之前，只取得过一些低级别的比赛成绩，而其他三个人更是 nobody，没有人认识他们。 但他们在五年内就都成为了世界顶级选手，这再次证明了“五年计划”的可行性。 我认为，他们作为一个团队的成功，让格斗界相信，这套体系不是只适用于某些特殊的人，或者某种特定的体型，而是适用于所有人。 “如果他们能做到，我也能做到”，正是这种信念，让越来越多的人开始学习我们的腿锁体系，并将它融入到自己的技术风格中。

John: But also, convince you and convince, convince each other in those early days when you’re developing the science. Essentially, what was missing is an entire science and system of leg locks because it’s not like you knew for sure that there’s a lot here to be discovered in terms of control. You perhaps had, just like you said, an initial intuition, but you know, you have to have enough, um, there’s perseverance required to, uh, take, is the Jony Ive thing, to take from the initial idea to the entire system. Is there, is there a sense you have about how complicated and how big this world of control, uh, in the, in leg locks is? How complicated is it? You’ve achieved a lot of success, you have a lot of powerful ideas in terms of inside, outside, what is high percentage, what’s not, what’s high reward, what’s low risk, all those kinds of things. And then you also mentioned, kind of, transitions. Not transitions, but how you move with your opponent to, uh, resist their escape through control. This is, how much do you understand about this world? This is a fascinating question.

约翰: 他们的成功也让你相信了自己的理念，并且在你们最初研究这套体系的时候，也让你们彼此之间更加坚定了信念。 当时，腿锁技术还没有形成完整的体系，你只是凭着直觉认为，在“控制”方面还有很大的探索空间，就像你之前说的那样。 但你需要足够的毅力，才能像乔纳森·艾维那样，将最初的想法变成一个完整的体系。 你觉得腿锁中的“控制”世界有多复杂，有多大？ 它有多复杂？ 你已经取得了很大的成功，你对内侧、外侧、高成功率、低成功率、高回报、低风险等等，都有很深刻的理解。 你还提到了“转换”，或者说，如何通过控制对手的动作来阻止他们逃脱。 你对这个领域了解多少？ 这是一个很有意思的问题。

John: Um, as a general rule, the most, the most powerful developments are always at the onset of a project. Okay? Um, let’s give an example. Um, the jet engine was, uh, I believe, first conceived in the late 1930s, just around the time of World War II. It was developed with great pace because of World War II. That, obviously, military research was a huge thing back then. And first fielded, I believe by the Germans, uh, in around 1943. Um, jet aircraft didn’t play a big role in World War II, they were there at the end, and they did play a significant role, but in terms of numbers, they just weren’t there. So, by around 1945, you had the onset of the jet age and the jet engine began to replace the piston engine in most aircraft. It was, it was the new way of, of doing things. If you look at the pace of development of jet engine aircraft technology from 1945 to 1960, it is unbelievable. There was a solid decade where they were gaining almost 100 miles an hour per year for a decade. That’s a form of growth that, I mean, in the world of engineering, that’s, that’s the only time you see growth like that is on things like Bitcoin, and that’s about it, okay? Um, uh, let’s put things in perspective, okay? Um, in World War II, the standard US aircraft bomber was the B-17, which was a mid-sized bomber, with a fairly limited load capacity, and I think top speed well below 300 miles an hour. Just 10 years later, you had the B-52, which could fly across continents and deliver nuclear weapons and carry bomb loads of up to 70,000 pounds. Uh, in a decade, that happened. I, if you took a B-17 pilot in 1943 and put them inside a B-52 a decade later, he would literally think he was on a UFO, a ship from another planet. That was the speed of development. Now contrast that with the speed of modern development. If I took you in a time machine and I put you in a civil airliner in 1972, let’s say a Boeing 737, it’s not that different from what you fly in today.

约翰: 一般来说，一项技术最快速的进步往往发生在它诞生的初期阶段。 我举个例子，喷气式发动机是在 20 世纪 30 年代后期，也就是二战前后被发明出来的。 由于战争的需要，它的发展速度非常快。 当时军事研究非常受重视。 第一架喷气式飞机，我记得是德国人制造的，大约是在 1943 年。 喷气式飞机在二战中并没有发挥太大的作用，它们只是在战争末期才出现，虽然它们发挥了一定的作用，但数量很少。 到了 1945 年，喷气时代来临了，喷气式发动机开始取代活塞发动机，成为飞机的主要动力系统。 如果你看一下从 1945 年到 1960 年这段时间，喷气式飞机技术的发展速度，你会感到难以置信。 在整整十年时间里，喷气式飞机的速度几乎每年都会提高 100 英里/小时，这在工程领域是绝无仅有的，只有像比特币这样的东西才能与之媲美。 我们来对比一下，二战时期的美军标准轰炸机是 B-17，它是一架中型轰炸机，载弹量有限，最大飞行速度应该不到 300 英里/小时。 仅仅十年之后，B-52 轰炸机就诞生了，它可以跨洲飞行，携带核武器，载弹量高达 70000 磅。 十年之间，技术进步的速度是惊人的。 如果你把 1943 年的 B-17 飞行员放到十年后的 B-52 轰炸机里，他会以为自己驾驶的是 UFO，来自外星球的飞行器。 这就是当时技术发展的速度。 而现在，技术进步的速度已经放缓了。 如果你乘坐时间机器回到 1972 年，坐上一架波音 737 客机，你会发现它和现在的客机并没有太大的区别。

Lex: That’s right. Flies at the same speed, has the same range, flies at the same altitude. It’s not that different. The amount of progress between 1973 and 2020 isn’t very impressive, but the amount of progress from 1945 to 1955, or even better, 1960, was staggering.

莱克斯: 的确如此，它们的速度、航程和飞行高度都差不多。 从 1973 年到 2020 年，技术进步的速度并不快，但从 1945 年到 1955 年，或者说更确切地说是到 1960 年，技术进步的速度是惊人的。

John: And so, the initial progress tends to be meteoric, but after that, it tends to be incremental. That’s that, with leg locks. There’s a guy named Elon Musk, there’s been almost no development in terms of, uh, space rocket propulsion and rocket launches, and going out into orbit, or going out into deep space. And one guy comes along, one John Danaher-type character, and says, “It doesn’t make sense why we don’t use reusable rockets, why we don’t make it much cheaper, why we don’t launch every week as opposed to every few years. It doesn’t make any sense why we don’t go to the moon again, over and over and over. It doesn’t make any sense why we don’t go to Mars and colonize Mars.” It feels like it’s not just a single jump to a B-52, it’s a series of these kinds of jumps. So the question is: is there another leap within the leg locking system? Time will tell. Um, I do believe that we’re in a phase now where the really big jumps have already been made, and we’re, we’re in the incremental phase at this point. Um, what I do believe is that you will start to see new directions start to emerge, where you start to see the interface between leg locking and wrestling, for example. The interface between leg locking and back attacks, and that will provide new avenues of direction, which will provide, create new spurs of growth. But in terms of, uh, breaking people’s legs, this the simple act of breaking legs, i I believe we’re in the incremental phase now, rather than the meteoric phase.

约翰: 所以，技术的进步往往是先飞速发展，然后再逐渐递增。 腿锁技术也是如此。 比如埃隆·马斯克，他在太空火箭推进和发射方面取得了突破性进展，让火箭能够进入轨道，甚至进入深空。 他就像约翰·丹纳赫尔一样，提出了一个全新的理念，他说：“我们为什么不使用可重复使用的火箭呢？ 我们为什么不把它做得更便宜呢？ 我们为什么不像每隔几年那样每周发射一次呢？ 我们为什么不再次登月呢？ 我们为什么不去火星建立殖民地呢？” 这就像是从 B-17 轰炸机到 B-52 轰炸机的飞跃，而且是一系列的飞跃。 所以，问题是，腿锁体系中是否还会出现这样的飞跃？ 时间会给出答案。 我认为，腿锁技术已经完成了最关键的几次飞跃，现在正处于渐进式发展阶段。 但我相信，未来会出现新的发展方向，比如腿锁与摔跤技术的结合，腿锁与背部攻击技术的结合，这些结合会带来新的突破，推动腿锁技术的发展。 但就折断腿这项技术而言，我认为我们现在正处于渐进式发展阶段，而不是飞速发展阶段。

Lex: Let me ask you a ridiculous question: how hard is it to actually break a leg? This is something you think about. I remember, because I’m a big fan of the straight foot lock. Not, again, we’re talking about to the standing Seoi-nage, maybe it’s my, uh, Russian roots with Sambo, or something like that. Maybe it’s the Dean Lister, uh, Achilles lock, but i i love, maybe it’s my body, something like that. I just love the squeeze of it, the control and the power of a straight foot lock. And I remember trying to, there’s a few people in competition that didn’t want to attack, absolutely. And I remember, in particular, there was one, one person. It was a, again, a finals match, purple belt, I remember it was a straight foot lock, is perfect, everything’s just perfect, and I remember going all in, and there was a pop, pop, pop, and I couldn’t do anything more. It wasn’t breaking, it was, it was just bending and bending and bending, and there’s damage to it, of some kind, but I wanted to like, you know, I wanted to see. First of all, it’s very difficult psychologically because it’s like, “Can I be violent here?” That wasn’t a whole ’nother thing. With adrenaline, you can’t really think that fast, but I also thought like, “Where, where else is there to go? Like, is it the shin going to break? What is supposed to break?”.

莱克斯: 我接下来要问你一个比较奇怪的问题：折断一条腿到底有多难？ 你应该思考过这个问题。 我很喜欢直脚锁，也许是受了俄罗斯桑搏的影响，也许是因为迪恩·利斯特的跟腱锁，我也不知道为什么，我就是喜欢这种技术，喜欢它那种挤压的感觉，那种控制力和力量感。 我记得在比赛中，有些对手就是不愿意拍手认输，我印象特别深刻的是有一次，那是一场紫带决赛，我用了一个完美的直脚锁，真的是完美无瑕，我使出全力，听到“咔咔咔”的声音，但对手的腿就是没有断。 它只是弯曲，弯曲，再弯曲，虽然对手的腿已经受伤了，但我还是想知道，它到底会不会断。 首先，从心理上来说，我很难接受折断对手的腿，我会想：“我这样做是不是太过分了？” 在肾上腺素的作用下，你很难理性思考，但我也会想：“我还能怎么做？ 是小腿会断吗？ 到底哪个部位会断？”

John: So, I wonder,

约翰: 我想知道，

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 是的。

John: In the case of the Achilles lock, it’s going to be the anterior tibialis tendon.

约翰: 如果是跟腱锁，受伤的部位应该是胫骨前肌腱。

Lex: And what’s that?

莱克斯: 那是什么？

John: Uh, let’s see, it runs down, there’s two of them, uh, it’ll be the minor one that runs on the outside of the front of the ankle. Um, it’s not going to be the Achilles tendon. A lot of people promulgate this, uh, this absurdity, “The Achilles tendon can rupture, but not from pressure.” It’s rather tender.

约翰: 胫骨前肌腱有两条，受伤的应该是靠近脚踝外侧的那条比较细的。 跟腱不会受伤。 很多人认为跟腱锁会损伤跟腱，这是一种错误的理解，跟腱可能会断裂，但不是因为压力。 它很脆弱，

Lex: Not the bone?

莱克斯: 骨头不会受伤吗？

John: It’s going to break the, the bone won’t break. I have seen, on one occasion, a shin bone break from an Achilles lock, but there was a enormous size and strength disparity, and there may have been other complicating factors, too. Um, but in the vast majority of cases, the Achilles lock doesn’t really do tremendous damage. It can do significant damage, you’ll definitely feel it the next day, but it’s of all the major locks, it’s the one where it is most likely, a psychologically strong opponent will be able to absorb damage and go on to win a match. Um, in answer to your first question, “How difficult is it to break a leg?” um, not very difficult. It will come down to what is the skill level of my opponent’s resistance. If your opponent is not resisting, and you have an inside heel hook, it is absurdly easy to break a man’s leg, not a challenge at all. Um, you can be a 105-pound woman could easily snap, um, the, the relevant knee ligaments, uh, in a 240-pound man’s leg if he doesn’t know how to defend himself. That’s an easy thing, very easy to accomplish. So, the basic answer is, “Yes, it’s very easy.” If your opponent does know how to defend and they can position their foot, play tricks of lever and fulcrum, it becomes significantly more difficult. It becomes still more difficult under match conditions, where they’re actively looking to position their body and work their way out of the lock, then it can become very difficult indeed. Always bear in mind that there have been some cases in our history, as a team, where people have literally just let their knees snap and continue fighting. Always remember that submission is a choice when it comes to the joint locks. And, uh, we’ve had some people who just made the choice, “And i, I’m willing to let my knee break so that I can can continue in this match.” That’s a tough decision to make, and I admire their bravery. Um,

约翰: 一般来说，骨头不会断。 我曾经见过一次因为跟腱锁而导致小腿骨骨折的情况，但那是因为双方体型和力量差距太大，而且可能还有一些其他原因。 在大多数情况下，跟腱锁不会造成太大的伤害。 它可能会造成一些损伤，让你在第二天感到疼痛，但在所有主要的关节技中，跟腱锁是最容易被意志坚定的对手承受下来的，他们甚至可以带伤继续比赛并赢得胜利。 回到你最初的问题，“折断一条腿有多难？” 其实并不难。 这取决于对手的防守能力。 如果对手没有抵抗，你用一个内侧足跟勾，就能轻而易举地折断他的腿，这没有任何难度。 一个 105 磅的女人可以轻易地折断一个 240 磅的男人的膝盖韧带，如果他不懂得如何防守的话。 所以，简单来说，折断一条腿很容易。 但如果你的对手懂得如何防守，能够调整脚的位置，利用杠杆和支点的原理来化解你的攻击，那么难度就会大大增加。 在比赛中，对手会主动地移动身体，试图逃脱你的控制，那么难度就更大了。 你要记住，我们团队的历史上曾经出现过这样的情况，有些选手宁愿膝盖被折断，也要继续比赛。 在关节技中，认输是一种选择。 我敬佩那些勇敢的战士，他们愿意为了比赛的胜利而付出一切代价。

Lex: Is there something about that, just to speak to that, that you, you admire?

{{{LiteralTranslation}}}

莱克斯: 关于这一点，嗯，只是为了谈谈这一点，你，你钦佩什么？

[[[Interpretative Translation]]]

莱克斯: 说到这一点，你最敬佩他们身上的什么品质？

John: Yes.

约翰: 是的。

Lex: Yeah.

莱克斯: 好的。

John: It’s mental toughness. I would, i, I agree with it. Would I advocate it? No. Um, but that doesn’t mean I can’t admire aspects of it.

约翰: 是他们的 mental toughness。 我理解他们的做法，但我不提倡这样做。 但这并不妨碍我敬佩他们的勇气和决心。

Lex: Who is the greatest grappler ever? You were very astute in the way you asked that question. You didn’t say, “The greatest Jiu-Jitsu player of all time.” You specified “grappler.”

莱克斯: 谁是有史以来最伟大的格斗家？ 你的问题问得很好，你没有说“有史以来最伟大的巴西柔术选手”，而是特地用了“格斗家”这个词。

John: What’s the bigger category?

约翰: 哪个范围更大？

Lex: Jiu-Jitsu is the bigger category?

莱克斯: 巴西柔术的范围更大吗？

John: Jiu-Jitsu has four faces. There is gi competition, there is no-gi competition, there is mixed martial arts competition, and there is self-defense. So Jiu-Jitsu has four aspects. Grappling typically refers only to the no-gi aspect of Jiu-Jitsu, so it’s one out of four possibilities.

约翰: 巴西柔术有四个方面：有道服比赛、无道服比赛、综合格斗比赛和自卫。 所以巴西柔术包含四个方面。 而“格斗”通常只指无道服巴西柔术，它是巴西柔术四个方面中的一个。

Lex: So who’s the greatest Jiu-Jitsu practitioner ever, and then who is the greatest grappler ever?

莱克斯: 所以，谁是有史以来最伟大的巴西柔术选手？ 谁是有史以来最伟大的格斗家？

John: I believe that the greatest Jiu-Jitsu player, certainly that I ever met, and I believe, of all time, i, I, I don’t want to sound arrogant on that because really, you can only go with your own experiences and there are some great athletes that other people mention that i, I just never met, so, but in my estimation, the greatest Jiu-Jitsu player is Roger Gracie. My reasoning for that is: out of the four faces of Jiu-Jitsu, he excelled in three, and in two of them in particular he was the best of his generation by a landslide. Um, in gi grappling, no-gi grappling, Roger dominated his generation to a degree that is truly impressive.

约翰: 我相信，至少在我见过的所有巴西柔术选手中，罗杰·格雷西是最伟大的，我认为他也是有史以来最伟大的巴西柔术选手。 我这样说可能有点 arrogant，因为我只能根据自己的经验来判断，而且我并没有见过所有伟大的巴西柔术选手。 但在我看来，罗杰·格雷西是最伟大的。 我的理由是：在巴西柔术的四个方面中，他精通三个方面，而且在其中的两个方面，他都是他那个时代最优秀的选手，并且遥遥领先于其他人。 在有道服和无道服的比赛中，罗杰都展现出了令人惊叹的统治力。

Lex: What do you attribute that dominance to, by the way? Is there something if you were to analyze them?

莱克斯: 顺便问一下，你认为是什么原因让他拥有如此强大的统治力？ 如果你分析他的技术特点，会发现什么？

John: Fascinating question. I’ll come back to it. In mixed martial arts, he was, at his peak, I believe ranked in the top 10 in the, uh, in the world of mixed martial arts. Uh, he wasn’t the best in mixed martial arts the way he was in grappling, but he was damn good, and he beat some significant people, so he showed tremendous versatility: gi, no-gi, mixed martial arts. He’s not really known in the world of self-defense, but there’s no real criteria by which you would become dominant in self-defense, so that’s kind of a, you can’t really judge people by that. I’m believing I’m, if I thought he got into a fight in the street, I’m sure he would do just fine, so i, I had no concerns about that. Um, uh, so I would say that if you look at Jiu-Jitsu for what I believe it is, a sport with four faces, I believe it’s, uh, you, you have to go with Roger Gracie as, uh, the one who went out and empirically proved his ability to, to go across those, those elements and do extraordinarily well in all of them. He even made the, um, the extraordinary step of coming out of retirement and beating the best of the generation that came after him.

约翰: 这是一个很好的问题，我们待会儿再讨论。 在综合格斗方面，罗杰在巅峰时期也能够进入世界前十。 虽然他在综合格斗领域的成就无法与他在格斗领域的成就相提并论，但他仍然非常出色，并且击败过一些顶尖选手。 他展现出了全面的能力：有道服、无道服和综合格斗。 他在自卫方面没有太多实战经验，但自卫没有明确的评判标准，所以我们无法对此进行评价。 我相信如果他在街头遇到危险，他也能很好地保护自己，我对此毫不担心。 所以，我认为，如果你把巴西柔术看作一项包含四个方面的运动，那么罗杰·格雷西无疑是最伟大的选手，因为他用实际行动证明了他在四个方面都能够取得成功。 他甚至在退役之后复出，并且击败了比他更年轻一代的顶尖选手，这更加令人惊叹。

Lex: And that’s,

莱克斯: 这，

John: Sure.

约翰: 当然。

Lex: Yes, that’s a truly difficult, sounds incredible.

莱克斯: 这真的太难了，难以置信。

John: Yeah. And a sport which progresses very, very rapidly. That’s a truly impressive accomplishment. Um, if you ask the question, “Who is the greatest grappler that I’ve ever seen?” uh, I would say I’ve never seen anyone better than Gordon Ryan. Um, now people are going to jump when I give these two names. They’re going to say, “Well, Daniel, you’re close friends with Roger, and you’re close friends with Gordon, so you’re biased.” Um, i, I can’t answer them to that. It’s true, I’m good friends with both of them. Um, I’m also a notoriously cold and unemotional person, and I’m saying this based upon things that I’ve observed. If I honestly believed that I’d seen other people who were better, I would have said it. Um, that’s, I will, that convince the people who uh, criticize me of bias? Probably not, but those are the two names that I will mention.

约翰: 没错，而且巴西柔术是一项发展非常迅速的运动，他的成就更加令人敬佩。 如果你问我“我见过的最伟大的格斗家是谁？” 我会说，我从来没有见过比戈登·瑞恩更优秀的格斗家。 我知道，当我提到这两个名字的时候，肯定会有人跳出来说：“你是罗杰的好朋友，也是戈登的好朋友，所以你的评价有失偏颇”。 我无法反驳他们，我确实和他们俩都是好朋友。 但我也是一个出了名的理性冷静的人，我的评价是基于我对他们的观察。 如果我认为有其他选手比他们更优秀，我一定会说出来。 我的评价能够说服那些质疑我的人吗？ 可能不会，但我仍然坚持我的观点，罗杰·格雷西和戈登·瑞恩是我心目中最伟大的选手。

Lex: I think it’s uncontroversial statement to say that, uh, Gordon Ryan is one of the, the greatest grapplers ever.

莱克斯: 我认为，戈登·瑞恩是有史以来最伟大的格斗家之一，这一点是毋庸置疑的。

John: Yeah. Gordon’s obviously a very polarizing figure and people tend to react to Gordon on an emotional level rather than a statistical level, and that colors a lot of people’s minds. But I also have the benefit that I’ve seen both of these guys extensively in the gym, and that all adds a whole new perspective. Like, if you think those guys are dominant on the stage, wait ’til you see them in the gym. It’s even a different level of domination, uh, above and beyond what they did in competition.

约翰: 没错，戈登是一个很有争议的人物，人们对他的评价往往是情绪化的，而不是基于客观的数据。 但这影响了很多人的判断。 我有幸在训练中近距离观察过他们两个人，这让我对他们有了更深刻的了解。 如果你觉得他们在比赛中已经很强了，那你应该看看他们在训练中的表现，他们的统治力更加令人惊叹，远远超过他们在比赛中展现出来的水平。

Lex: Have they trained against each other?

莱克斯: 他们曾经一起训练过吗？

John: No, they never trained together. They’ve been in the same gym, I think only on one occasion, when Roger was stopped by New York, he came back and came by to say hello and, uh, Gordon was here at the time. They, they shake hands, they know each other, and they’re both wonderful people in their own way.

约翰: 没有，他们从来没有一起训练过。 他们只在同一个健身房里见过一次面，我记得是罗杰路过纽约的时候，来道馆打招呼，当时戈登也在那里。 他们握了握手，互相认识了一下，他们都是 very nice 的人。

Lex: So I’d like to talk to you about Gordon, Roger, and George, GSP. Let’s first talk about, what do you think is this very different, from my perspective, maybe you can correct me, a very different artists?

莱克斯: 我想和你谈谈戈登、罗杰和乔治·圣皮埃尔。 我们先来谈谈，嗯，我认为他们三个是风格迥异的“艺术家”，你认同我的看法吗？ 也许你可以纠正我。

John: Yes.

约翰: 是的。

Lex: Masters of their, uh, pursuits. So what makes Roger so good?

莱克斯: 他们都是各自领域的“大师”。 那么，是什么让罗杰如此出色？

John: Roger was probably the living embodiment of someone who played a classical Jiu-Jitsu game based around the, the fundamental four steps of Jiu-Jitsu, and and, um, uh, like if, if you took someone who had taken introduction lessons in Jiu-Jitsu for three months, they would recognize the outlines of Roger’s game, with many of the techniques they learned in those first three months. Roger was the best example of the dichotomy between the fundamentals of Jiu-Jitsu but also a kind of hidden sophistication underneath those fundamentals. People always say, “Oh, you know, Roger’s game was so basic.” No, the outlines of Roger’s game were basic, but the degree of sophistication and the application was extraordinary. And his ability to refine existing technology was truly impressive. I never saw anyone in his generation that even came close to his uh, his ability both in competition and, uh, uh, in the gym.

约翰: 罗杰可能是最完美地诠释了古典巴西柔术的人，他的技术体系完全建立在巴西柔术的四个基本步骤之上。 即使是一个只学习了三个月巴西柔术的初学者，也能看懂罗杰的比赛，因为他使用的都是最基础的技术。 罗杰是“简单”与“复杂”的完美结合，他将最基础的技术运用到了极致。 人们总是说：“罗杰的技术太简单了”。 没错，他的技术框架很简单，但其中的细节和运用方式却非常复杂。 他改进现有技术的能力令人叹为观止。 在他那个时代，没有人能够接近他的水平，无论是在比赛中还是在训练中。

Lex: So, for people who don’t know, Roger Gracie basically used, just like you said, a very simple techniques, on the surface, from the outsider’s perspective that uh, most people learn when they start Jiu-Jitsu. Like, a passing guard in a very simple way, taking mount, and choking from mount. Also when he’s on his back, this closed guard and all the basic submissions from closed guard: armbar, and triangle, and just, that’s it. And being able to dominate, shut down, and submit, so control and submit, the best people in the world for many, many years. Just like you said, including coming out of retirement and beating the best, perhaps by far the best of the next generation. So that’s, that just kind of lays out the story. Is there some lessons about his systems that you, uh, learn in developing your own system?

莱克斯: 对于那些不了解罗杰·格雷西的人，我简单介绍一下，正如你所说，他使用的都是表面上看起来很简单的技术，也就是大多数人刚开始练习巴西柔术时学到的那些技术，比如用很 basic 的方式突破防守，获得骑乘，然后从骑乘中使用勒颈。 当他处于下位时，他会使用封闭防守，以及封闭防守中的所有基本降服技术，比如十字固和三角锁，仅此而已。 他用这些简单的技术统治了巴西柔术界很多年，击败了世界上最优秀的选手，正如你所说，他甚至在退役之后复出，击败了下一代最优秀的选手，甚至是迄今为止最优秀的。 这就是他的故事。 你从他的技术体系中学到了什么，并将它运用到你自己的体系中？

John: Excellent question. The, the thing which always impressed me the most about uh, Roger was his relentless pursuit of, uh, of “position to submission.” Everything was done with the belief that no victory was worthwhile if it didn’t involve submitting his opponent. That’s a mindset that I try very, very hard to imbue in my students. The easiest path to victory in Jiu-Jitsu is the one which takes the least risk. So, for example, you will see many modern athletes focus on scoring the first point, or the fourth first advantage, and then doing the minimum amount of work to each out a victory. Once they’ve done that, they get a small tactical advantage, they realize they’re ahead, take no more risks, and just do the minimum amount of work to get the victory. Roger’s mindset was always to take the riskier gambit of submission, which entails a lot more work and, in many cases, a lot more skill. What I always liked about Roger is he never tried to play tactics. It was always just, “Go out there and try to win by submission.” And that, more than anything, that mindset of looking for the most perfect victory rather than the victory that takes the least skill and the least effort is probably the, the thing I took from his career the most and tried to work upon in my students.

约翰: 问得好。 罗杰最让我印象深刻的是，他对“位置到降服”理念的坚持。 他认为，只有降服对手才能获得真正的胜利。 我也努力将这种理念灌输给我的学生。 在巴西柔术比赛中，最容易获胜的方式就是规避风险，比如很多选手会专注于拿到第一分，或者取得第一个优势，然后就采取保守的战术，尽量避免冒险，以最小的代价去赢得比赛。 而罗杰总是选择更冒险的降服策略，这需要更多的努力，也需要更高的技术水平。 我一直都很欣赏罗杰，因为他从来不玩弄战术，他的目标只有一个：通过降服赢得比赛。 他追求的是最完美的胜利，而不是最轻松的胜利，这种精神深深地影响了我，我也努力将这种精神传递给我的学生。

Lex: I always wonder what are the little details he’s doing under there when he’s in mount. The little adjustments. You know, but perhaps that’s like almost indescribable, the, the details of that control. What makes Gordon Ryan, the greatest grappler of all time, so good?

莱克斯: 我一直很好奇，他在骑乘位置时，到底做了哪些细微的调整？ 那种控制力的细节，也许很难用语言来描述。 那么，戈登·瑞恩，这位有史以来最伟大的格斗家，他为什么如此出色？

John: With Gordon, he’s also very strong on fundamentals. All of my students are, but he’s also obviously a member of a new generation of no-gi grapplers that also bring in technologies that uh, weren’t really emphasized in previous generations, specifically the prolific use of lower body attacks, especially from bottom position. Um, this means that he can play a game between upper body and lower body, which was not really a part of Roger’s game. Nonetheless, you will also see significant similarities. He’s got a very strong and crushing passing game to mount, and a very strong and crushing passing game to the back. Um, you will see that the major differences between the two are from bottom position. Roger’s bottom game is essentially based around his closed guard. Gordon Ryan’s game is based around his butterfly guard. So one is based on outside control, and one is based on inside control. One focuses almost entirely on the classical notion of getting past the legs to the upper body, and the other one works between the two as alternatives, and sees them as competing alternatives where the stronger you become at one, the more your opponent has to overreact and become vulnerable to the second. So they have strong similarities in top position, but are very different in bottom.

约翰: 戈登的基本功也非常扎实，我所有的学生都是如此。 但他显然也代表了新一代无道服格斗选手，他们引入了很多前几代人没有重视的技术，尤其擅长使用下半身攻击，特别是从下位进攻。 这意味着他能够同时使用上半身和下半身的攻击技术，而罗杰则很少使用下半身攻击。 尽管如此，他们之间也有很多相似之处。 他们都拥有非常强大的压制能力，能够将对手压制到骑乘位或背后位。 他们之间最大的区别在于下位技术。 罗杰的下位技术主要围绕封闭防守展开，而戈登·瑞恩则更擅长使用蝴蝶防守。 一个是基于外侧控制，一个是基于内侧控制。 罗杰专注于传统的突破腿部控制上半身的理念，而戈登·瑞恩则将两者视为互相补充的进攻方式。 你在其中一种技术上越强，你的对手就越需要去防守它，从而在另一种技术上露出破绽。 所以，他们在上位技术上有很多相似之处，但在下位技术上却截然不同。

Lex: He has, uh, from an outsider’s perspective, a calm to him in the, uh, in the heat of battle that’s like, uh, that’s inspiring and confusing. Is there something to speak to the psychological aspect of Gordon Ryan?

莱克斯: 作为旁观者，我感觉他在激烈的比赛中总是非常冷静，这既让人感到敬佩，又让人感到困惑。 你能谈谈戈登·瑞恩的心理状态吗？

John: Yes. People will talk all day about sports psychology, and, um, they will often have heated arguments as to what’s the right side psychological state to be in when you go out to compete. I’ve never seen any one school of thought which gave noticeably better sports performance than another. I’ve never seen any psychological mindset prove to be reliably more efficient or effective than another. I’ve seen fighters that were scared out of their minds when they went out every time to fight, and yet they were very successful. I’ve seen fighters go out who were relaxed and calm, and they, too, can be successful. I’ve seen both mindsets win, I’ve seen both mindsets lose, I’ve seen every extreme between them. What I generally recommend, with regards your mind and preparation going in: find what works for you. Everyone’s different, don’t try to give a one-size-fits-all in something as vague and confusing as the human mind. Um, having said that, my preference, I don’t force it on people because everyone’s different, but my preference is to try and advocate for a mindset of unexceptionalism. Most people see competition as something exceptional, it’s not your everyday grappling session. You know you train 300 times for every time you compete, and so they see competition is something exceptional, different, scarier, more nerve-wracking: “There’s a crowd watching, these cameras, my reputation is on the line, I’m going to be observed and judged,” and so they see it as this exceptional event. My general preference is to see it as an unexceptional event, to see everything else, the noise, the cameras, the crowd, as illusions. The only reality is: a stage, an opponent on the other side of it, and a referee adjudicating you, and to make it as unexceptional as possible. Gordon does an extraordinarily good job of, of doing that. Gordon looks more tense in most of his training sessions than he does in his competitions, because he knows his training partners are typically better than the people he’s actually going out to compete against, and you see it in its demeanor. It’s one of just complete calm. It also goes back to what we talked about earlier, about the power of escapes. Gordon Ryan is almost impossible to control, for extended periods of time, in most of the inferior positions in the sport, and most of the submissions. So he goes out in the full knowledge that the worst-case scenario isn’t that bad for him, and so nothing could really go that badly wrong. He can always recover from any given mistake and go on to victory. When you believe those things, you can have a calm demeanor.

约翰: 人们总是喜欢讨论运动心理学，他们经常会争论，在比赛中，哪种心理状态才是最有利的。 但我从来没有发现哪种心理状态能够明显提升运动员的比赛成绩。 我见过一些选手，他们在比赛前会感到极度恐惧，但他们仍然取得了很大的成功；我也见过一些选手，他们在比赛前非常放松和平静，他们也同样能够取得成功。 我见过各种各样的心理状态，有些能够帮助选手赢得比赛，有些则会导致选手输掉比赛，我见过各种极端的例子。 我通常的建议是，找到适合你自己的心理状态。 每个人的性格都不一样，没有一种放之四海而皆准的方法。 我个人比较推崇“平常心”，也就是说，不要把比赛看得太特殊。 大多数人都会把比赛看得非常重要，因为他们知道自己为了这场比赛付出了多少努力，他们会感到紧张，会担心自己的表现，会害怕失败。 他们会关注观众、摄像机和自己的声誉，这一切都会让他们感到压力山大。 而我则建议把比赛看作是一次普通的训练，忽略那些外界的干扰，专注于比赛本身。 对于戈登来说，比赛就像是一次普通的训练，他甚至在训练中比在比赛中更紧张，因为他知道，他的训练伙伴通常比他的对手更强。 所以他在比赛中总是表现得非常冷静。 这也与我们之前讨论的“逃脱的力量”有关。 戈登·瑞恩几乎无法被长时间控制，无论是在什么位置，无论被对手使用什么降服技术，他总能找到逃脱的方法。 所以他清楚地知道，即使出现最糟糕的情况，他也不会陷入绝境，他总是能够化险为夷，最终赢得比赛。 当你拥有这种信念的时候，你自然就会变得冷静。

Lex: Then if you look at somebody who is quite a bit different than that, George St-Pierre, who at least in the way he describes it, he’s basically exceptionally anxious.

莱克斯: 而乔治·圣皮埃尔则完全不同，至少从他自己的描述来看，他是一个非常焦虑的人。

John: Yes.

约翰: 没错。

Lex: And terrified approaching a fight, a go, and he loves training and hates fighting.

莱克斯: 他在比赛前会感到极度恐惧，他喜欢训练，但却讨厌比赛。

John: And hates fighting.

约翰: 他讨厌比赛。

Lex: So, and just like you said, he made it work for him, but you, he’s somebody, he speaks very highly of you, he’s worked with you quite a bit in training, and you’ve studied him, you’ve worked with him, you’ve coached him. Interestingly, I’ve actually coached George for twice the lengths of any of the squad members, so my knowledge of, homelessness, is far greater than it is for really a contemporary squad. So, can you speak to what makes George St-Pierre, who I think, even though I’m Russian and a little bit partial towards Fedor, and the, the Russians, but I think he is, in the four categories you mentioned, the greatest mixed martial artist of all time. What makes him so good? His approach, his techniques, his mind?

莱克斯: 就像你说的，他找到了适合自己的方法。 他对你评价很高，曾经和你一起训练过很长时间。 你研究过他，和他一起训练过，也指导过他。 有趣的是，我指导乔治的时间比指导任何一个“战队”成员的时间都长，所以我对他的了解程度远远超过任何一个“战队”成员。 所以，你能谈谈是什么让乔治·圣皮埃尔如此出色吗？ 我认为，即使我是一个俄罗斯人，而且有点偏向于菲多和其他俄罗斯选手，但我仍然认为，乔治·圣皮埃尔是有史以来最伟大的综合格斗家，至少在你提到的四个方面都是如此。 是什么让他如此出色？ 是他的训练方法、他的技术还是他的心理状态？

John: His approach is certainly part of it. George started mixed martial arts at a time when the sport was in a pretty wild phase. Um, uh, it was illegal to show on most American TV networks, and there was talk about it being banned as a sport, uh, in his native Canada. It was banned. You could only fight on Indian reservations in in Canada, I believe. His first fight may have been on an Indian reservation. Um, so the sport, at that stage, was very much in its infancy. And it’s probably fair to say that most of the athletes involved in the sport came from a training program that would probably be described as “unprofessional” and, in, um, in the contemporary scene. Um, George is one of a handful of people who started approaching the sport in a truly professional fashion. It was like, “Okay, here’s what great athletes in other sports do, I’m going to try to emulate that.” And, uh, his ability to invest in himself, in my own experience for example, uh, George, when I first met him, was a garbage man. And he would jump on a bus from Montreal to New York. Now, that’s a, that’s a long bus ride. He would come down on a Friday afternoon when he finished work as a garbage man, stay for the weekend, and then, late on Sunday night, he would jump on a bus all the way back to Montreal and work as a garbage man. Um, that’s an extraordinary commitment for a young man to make. That’s, and George was a blue belt at the time. And so he would come down and, you know, we had a very talented room, so, uh, he didn’t do well in the room when he first came in. He was inexperienced in Jiu-Jitsu, and, uh, the people who went against were considerably better than him at Jiu-Jitsu. So imagine investing 25% of your weekly income, maybe even more. New York’s an expensive town.

约翰: 他的训练方法当然是其中一个原因。 乔治开始练习综合格斗的时候，这项运动还处于非常初级的阶段。 当时，综合格斗在美国的大多数电视台都是禁播的，甚至有人提议要在乔治的祖国加拿大禁止这项运动。 它最终确实被禁止了，我记得在加拿大，你只能在印第安人保留地参加比赛。 乔治的第一场比赛可能就是在印第安人保留地进行的。 所以，当时的综合格斗还处于发展初期，可以说，大多数运动员的训练方式都很不专业。 而乔治是少数几个以真正职业的态度来对待这项运动的人之一。 他会观察其他项目的优秀运动员是如何训练的，然后尝试去模仿他们。 他非常善于投资自己，比如，我第一次见到他的时候，他还是一个垃圾清理工。 他每个周末都会从蒙特利尔坐大巴到纽约来训练，这是一段很长的旅程。 他会在周五下午下班后坐车过来，待到周日晚上再坐车回去。 对于一个年轻人来说，这需要付出巨大的努力。 而且当时他还只是一个蓝带，所以他刚来的时候，在训练中表现并不好。 他缺乏巴西柔术的经验，而且我们道馆里有很多高手，他们的水平都比他高。 所以，你可以想象一下，他每周都要花费 25% 甚至更多的收入来纽约训练，而且经常被“虐”。 纽约的消费水平很高，

Lex: 50%.

莱克斯: 他可能要花掉一半的收入。

John: To come down and just get your ass kicked, months by month.

约翰: 他每个月都要来这里被“虐”。

Lex: Yeah, that says a lot. Let’s talk about the whole idea of delayed gratification here. I mean, um, that’s, that’s a guy who’s saying like, “This is highly unpleasant, but I have a vision of myself in the future and I have to go through this extreme case of delayed gratification to get to that distant goal, which may never happen.” And, uh, that’s a, that’s the level of commitment and self-belief which is just extraordinary. Um, I always laugh when people say, “You know, George was afraid so he was mentally weak.” Like, no, that’s, that’s a very, very shallow understanding of mental strength and weakness. Um, George felt anxiety, but let’s understand from the start there’s different kinds of mental strength, and the most important kind isn’t whether you feel fear or don’t feel fear before you step into fight. The most important form of mental strength is discipline and training. That’s where most people break. I know dozens of people who are fearless to fight, but you couldn’t get them to come into the gym for three months in a row and work on skills.

莱克斯: 是的，这说明了很多问题。 我们来谈谈“延迟满足”这个概念。 他就是一个很好的例子，他为了未来的目标，甘愿忍受当下的痛苦，即使这个目标可能永远无法实现。 这种付出和 self-belief 是非常 extraordinary 的。 我总是觉得那些说“乔治害怕比赛，所以他心理脆弱”的人很可笑。 他们对心理强弱的理解太肤浅了。 乔治确实会感到焦虑，但你要明白，心理力量有很多种表现形式，最重要的是，它不是指你在比赛前是否会感到恐惧。 心理力量最重要的表现形式是自律和坚持训练。 这是大多数人无法做到的。 我认识很多天不怕地不怕的人，但你让他们连续训练三个月，他们就坚持不了了。

Lex: Yeah, so they’re mentally strong one way, they don’t feel fear, but they’re mentally weak in another, which is to instill them the discipline which keeps you on a road to progress over time. That’s much tougher than not feeling fear before you are defined. Understand also that when George talks about fear, he’s not afraid of his opponent, he’s afraid of failure. He’s got high standards. Someone who’s got high standards can change the world. His standards were very, very high, that’s what he was afraid of, wasn’t afraid of his opponent.

莱克斯: 没错，他们也许在某个方面心理强大，比如他们不害怕打架，但在另一个方面却很脆弱，比如他们缺乏自律，无法坚持训练。 要让他们养成自律的习惯，并长期坚持下去，这比让他们克服对打架的恐惧要困难得多。 另外，你要明白，乔治所说的“恐惧”并不是指害怕对手，而是害怕失败。 他的目标很高，而那些目标远大的人，往往能够改变世界。 他对自己要求非常严格，这就是他害怕的原因，而不是害怕对手。

Lex: And yet, that’s always been the misinterpretation. He wasn’t mentally weak, he was mentally strong as an ox. Okay? To stay in his training regimen, year after year after year, and do so while he became one of the first stars in mixed martial arts to actually make money, and it gets tough to stay in the training gym with people who are young and hungry and want to punch you in the face. You’re coming out of a luxury room, living in finery towards the end of his career, and still training as hard as ever. That’s an impressive thing, and always he valued perfection.

莱克斯: 没错，人们总是误解他，他并不是心理脆弱，而是像牛一样坚韧。 他年复一年地坚持着自己的训练计划，即使在他成为综合格斗巨星，赚到很多钱之后，仍然能够保持刻苦训练的习惯，这非常不容易。 因为当你功成名就之后，你很难再和那些年轻气盛，想要挑战你的年轻人一起待在训练馆里，忍受他们的拳打脚踢。 他在职业生涯末期，已经过上了舒适的生活，但他仍然像以前一样刻苦训练，这令人非常敬佩。 他始终追求完美，

John: And you’re right. That was the fear, was not achieving the perfection.

约翰: 你说的没错，他害怕的不是对手，而是无法达到完美的境界。

Lex: Is there something you’ve, uh, observed about the way he approaches training that, uh, stands out to you? Or is it simply the dedication?

莱克斯: 你有没有观察到他有哪些独特的训练方法？ 或者说，他只是非常 dedicated？

John: No. It’s never just about dedication. There’s lots of dedicated people in the world, but most of them are unsuccessful. If you want to be the best in the world at anything, you have to do, out of the many skills of whatever industry you’re in, you have to take at least one of those skills, and be the best in the world at it. There’s many skills in mixed martial arts, but George identified one skill, which is the skill of striking to takedowns. He calls it shoot boxing. Shoot boxing was barely even a category of skill when George began. It was just the idea that wrestlers grabbed people and took them down the same way they did in wrestling, and and you threw some punches before you did it. Okay? George largely pioneered this science of creating an interface between striking and takedowns. He did it at a time where no one else before him had made it into a system or a science. He did it largely on his own, and I’ve always said, “George is the only athlete that I ever coached who taught me more than I taught him.” And almost single-handedly, he created this strong sense of shoot boxing as a science, which enabled him throughout his career to determine where the fight would take place. Would it be standing or would it be on the ground? And that, more than anything else, was the defining characteristic of his success. Um, I will always be immensely impressed by his accomplishment in that regard. He was an innovator, he did things differently.

约翰: 不，仅仅依靠 dedicated 是不够的。 世界上有很多 dedicated 的人，但他们大多数都没有取得成功。 如果你想在任何领域成为世界顶尖，你必须在众多技能中，至少精通一项，并且达到世界最顶尖的水平。 综合格斗包含很多种技术，而乔治选择了“从打击到抱摔的转换”这项技术，他把它叫做“站立式摔跤”。 在他刚开始练习的时候，“站立式摔跤”甚至算不上是一项技术，摔跤手只是简单地抓住对手，然后像摔跤那样把他们摔倒，在摔倒之前可能会出几拳。 乔治几乎是 single-handedly 地将“站立式摔跤”发展成了一门科学，在他之前，没有人把它变成系统的技术体系。 我一直说，“乔治是我指导过的唯一一个教给我的东西比我教给他的东西更多的运动员”。 他几乎凭借一己之力，将“站立式摔跤”变成了一门科学，这让他能够在比赛中掌控节奏，决定比赛的进行方式，是站立对攻，还是地面缠斗。 这正是他取得成功的关键。 我对他在这方面的成就感到非常敬佩，他是一个 innovator，他总是能够另辟蹊径。

Lex: This is such an important point. You can’t go out there, in combat sports, and do the same things that everybody else is doing and expect to get different results. Life doesn’t work that way. If you want to be dominant, you got to find one important part of the sport, and preferably more than one, and be the best in the world at it. You can’t be weak at anything, but you can’t be strong at everything either. Life’s not long enough for us to develop a truly complete skill set, so you’ve got to be good at everything, and you’ve got to be the best at, at least one thing. And George was the best at two in his era. He was the best at striking to takedowns, and he was the best at integrating striking and grappling on the floor. Let me ask you a completely ridiculous question, but it’s a fascinating one for me from an engineering and a scientific perspective. When I look at a sport, really any problem, one way to ask, “How difficult is this problem?” is to see, “How can I build a machine that competes with a human being at that problem?” You can look at chess, you could look at soccer, RoboCup, and then you could look at grappling. There’s something about, when you start to think, “How would I build an AI system, a robot, that defeats somebody like Gordon Ryan,” where it forces you to really think about formalizing this art as a, as an engineering discipline in the same way you do, but you, you, you still have some art injected in there. There’s no space for art when you actually have to build the system.

莱克斯: 你说的太对了，在格斗运动中，你不能只是模仿别人的做法，却指望得到不同的结果，这在生活中也是行不通的。 要想成为最优秀的选手，你必须找到一项，最好是多项，你最擅长的技术，并且将它练到极致。 你不能有任何明显的弱点，但你也不可能精通所有技术，因为时间有限，我们无法掌握所有的技术。 所以，你必须精通所有技术，并且至少在一项技术上做到最好。 乔治就是在他那个时代最优秀的选手，他最擅长的技术有两项，一项是从打击到抱摔的转换，另一项是地面上的打击与缠斗技术的结合。 我接下来要问你一个听起来很 ridiculous 的问题，但从工程学和科学的角度来看，这是一个很有意思的问题。 当我研究一项运动，或者任何一个问题时，我经常会问自己：“这个问题有多难？” 我会尝试着用“如何制造一台机器来和人类竞争”这个问题来衡量问题的难度。 比如国际象棋、足球、机器人世界杯，还有格斗。 当我思考“如何制造一个能够击败戈登·瑞恩的人工智能系统，或者说机器人”时，我会尝试着将这项运动形式化，把它变成一门工程学科，就像你所做的那样。 但是，你仍然保留了一些“艺术”的成分，而当你真正去制造这个机器人的时候，就没有“艺术”的空间了。

John: That’s not a ridiculous question, that’s a damned interesting question. Let’s put aside the, like, like I mentioned, with the Boston Dynamics Spot robots, what people don’t realize is the amount of power they can deliver is huge, so let’s take that weapon aside.

约翰: 这不是一个 ridiculous 的问题，而是一个非常有趣的问题。 我们先不考虑波士顿动力公司 Spot 机器人的力量，因为它们的力量太大了，我们先把这个“武器”放在一边。

Lex: Just the amount of force you’re able to deliver, yeah.

莱克斯: 是的，它们能够输出的力量太大了。

John: Yeah. I’m glad you’re specifying that. Um, uh, so essentially, your question is, “Okay, can, can a talented group of engineers create a robot which could defeat Gordon Ryan?” On the face of it, um, as you just pointed out, that’s the easiest project in the world. Just create a robot that carries a nine-millimeter automatic and shoot them five times in the chest. Okay? That’s, that, Gordon Ryan’s done. Um, so that’s not the interesting question. The interesting question, and i, if I understand you correctly, is, “If we had the ability to create a robot whose physical powers were identical to Gordon Ryan, not inferior and not superior, what would it take to create a mind inside that robot that would be Gordon Ryan in the majority of matches?”

约翰: 没错，我很高兴你提到了这一点。 所以，你的问题是：“一群 talented 的工程师能够制造出一个能够击败戈登·瑞恩的机器人吗？” 从表面上看，这很简单，正如你所说，只需要制造一个携带 9 毫米手枪的机器人，朝他胸口开五枪就行了。 这样戈登·瑞恩就完蛋了。 所以，这不是一个有趣的问题。 真正有趣的问题是，如果我们能够制造出一个 physical 能力和戈登·瑞恩完全一样的机器人，既不比他强，也不比他弱，那么我们如何才能在这个机器人内部创造出一个能够在大多数比赛中战胜戈登·瑞恩的“大脑”呢？

Lex: Yeah. And there’s two ways to build AI systems. This is true for autonomous driving, for example, which has been quite contested recently. So one is, you basically, one way to describe, is you have a giant set of rules. It’s like this tree of rules, where you apply a different condition when there’s a pattern you see, you apply a rule, and they’re hard-coded in. You basically get like a John Danaher type of character who tries to encode, hard code, into the system all the moves you should do in every single case. Of course, you can’t actually do that fully, so you’re going to be taking shortcuts, uh, what are called heuristics, just basic, basic kind of generalizations and apply your own expertise as an expert of, in this case, grappling, to see how that can be encoded as a rule. Now, the other approach, Elon Musk and Tesla taking this approach, which is called machine learning, which is create a basic framework of the kind of things you should be observing and what are the measures, metrics of success, and then just observe and see which things lead to success more success and which lead to less success, and there’s a delta. You, like, when you, when you see a thing, first of all, the way machine learning works is you predict. You see a position, or you see a situation, and then you predict how good that is. And then you watch how it actually turns out, and if it’s, uh, worse or better, you adjust your expectations.

莱克斯: 没错，建造人工智能系统主要有两种方法。 自动驾驶就是一个很好的例子，这项技术最近引发了很多争议。 第一种方法是预先设定大量的规则，就像一棵规则树，当你观察到某种模式时，就应用相应的规则，这些规则都是 hard-coded 的。 你需要像约翰·丹纳赫尔一样，将所有可能出现的情况都预先编码到系统中，告诉机器在每一种情况下应该做什么。 当然，你不可能穷尽所有的情况，所以你需要使用一些捷径，也就是我们所说的 heuristics，将一些基本的原则和你的专业知识编码到系统中。 第二种方法是埃隆·马斯克和特斯拉正在使用的“机器学习”，它不需要预先设定规则，而是创建一个基本的框架，告诉机器应该观察哪些信息，以及如何衡量成功，然后让机器通过观察和学习来不断改进自己的预测能力。 机器学习的工作原理是预测，它会根据当前的情况预测未来的结果，然后观察实际结果，并根据结果调整自己的预测模型。 如果实际结果比预测结果好，就调整预测模型，使其更乐观；如果实际结果比预测结果差，就调整预测模型，使其更悲观。

John: Yes.

约翰: 没错。

Lex: Through that process, you can learn quite a lot. The, the challenges, and this might be a very true challenge in grappling, is, uh, in like in driving, you can’t crash. So there’s a physical world in chess, for example, where this approach has been exceptionally successful. You can work in simulation, so you can have a AI system that, for example, with, as in the case with AlphaZero by DeepMind, Google’s DeepMind, it can play itself in simulation millions of times, billions of times. It’s difficult to know if it’s possible to do that in stimulation for, for, for anything that involves human movement like grappling. So that’s, my sense is, if we first look at the hard encoding, if you were to try to describe Gordon Ryan to a machine, how many rules are in there, do you think?

莱克斯: 通过这种方式，机器可以学习到很多东西。 但这种方法的挑战在于，它需要大量的训练数据，而且在格斗运动中，你无法像自动驾驶那样，在模拟环境中进行训练，因为一旦发生碰撞，就会造成 damage。 在国际象棋领域，这种方法非常成功，因为你可以让 AI 系统在模拟环境中进行训练，比如 DeepMind 的 AlphaZero，它可以在模拟环境中自己和自己下棋，进行数百万次，甚至数十亿次的训练。 但对于格斗运动来说，很难在模拟环境中进行训练，因为任何涉及到人类动作的技术，都很难用数学模型来精确模拟。 所以，我的问题是，如果用第一种方法，也就是硬编码的方式，来制造一个“戈登·瑞恩机器人”，你需要预先设定多少条规则？

John: Yeah. Um, first off, let me tell you, that’s one of the most fascinating questions I’ve ever been asked, and, uh, I’m tremendously happy to answer this. Um, how about what we do is, this is a, this is a massive question you’ve asked. There’s a huge amount of ways this could get very interesting and very confusing. Let’s set some ground rules for the discussion. Um, uh, Lex alluded to the idea of man versus machine and chess, okay? And I think that’s a really good place for us to start the discussion. Um, I’m going to, uh, just tell people about a little bit the history of man versus chess, to give you guys some, uh, some background on this. In 1968, there was a a party in which a highly ranked, not, not a world champion, but a highly ranked chess player, and his name was Levy, and he met a a computer engineer at a party, and they had a, a a light-hearted bet that in a 10-year time frame a human chess player would be defeated by a computer. Now you gotta remember, 1968, computing power was very, very low. The computers that got America to the moon were, were actually pretty damn primitive. Your iPhone would kick all of their asses. So, computational power was very, very low in those days. So, interestingly, the chess player fully believed that no computer could beat them in the 10-year time frame, and the, the computer engineer was very optimistic that he was wrong, and in fact, 10 years, uh, the computer would win. 10 years later, they had a competition, and the human won. Uh, decisively, in fact, so computational power simply hadn’t risen to that level yet. Through the 1980s, computational power increased but not sufficient to, to, to get to championship level. There were computer programs in the 1980s which were competitive with good, solid chess players, but not world beaters. Understand, right from the start, that there’s a fundamental problem here: the number of options that the two players, in a chess board, can run through is astronomically high. There are 64 squares on a chess, chessboard. The number of possible options that can, could work, or could play out on a chessboard, and this is a truly shocking thing for you to think about, the number of possible options is higher than the number of atoms in the known universe. Think about that for a second in terms of complexity. Okay? The number of atoms on this table is massive, okay? That is an unbelievably large number. Then we’re talking about a situation where if a computer had to go through all the options at the onset of a match, they would have to run numbers greater than the number of atoms in the known universe. The number of galaxies in, the number of, in our universe is vast, okay? It’s measured in the billions. Like, the number of atoms, that’s just, a number.

约翰: 这是一个非常 fascinating 的问题，我很乐意回答你。 你问了一个很 complex 的问题，它有很多值得探讨的地方，也很容易让人感到 confused。 我们先来设定一些基本规则。 莱克斯提到了“人机大战”在国际象棋领域的应用，这是一个很好的切入点。 我先来简单介绍一下“人机大战”在国际象棋领域的发展历史。 1968 年，在一个聚会上，一个排名很高的国际象棋棋手（不是世界冠军）和一个计算机工程师打赌，说在十年内，没有任何计算机能够战胜人类国际象棋棋手。 你要知道，在 1968 年，计算机的运算能力还很低，即使是那些帮助美国登月的计算机，也相当 primitive，你的 iPhone 都比它们强大得多。 所以，这位国际象棋棋手很有自信。 而那位计算机工程师则很乐观地认为，十年后，计算机就能战胜人类。 十年之后，他们进行了一场比赛，结果人类棋手 decisive 地赢得了比赛。 当时的计算机运算能力还没有达到那个水平。 在整个 20 世纪 80 年代，计算机的运算能力虽然有所提升，但仍然不足以战胜顶尖的人类棋手。 当时的一些国际象棋程序，虽然能够和一些水平不错的棋手对抗，但还无法战胜世界冠军。 这里有一个 fundamental 的问题：国际象棋的可能性是 astronomical 的。 一个国际象棋棋盘有 64 个格子，棋盘上可能出现的局面数量，你可能很难想象，它比已知宇宙中的原子数量还要多。 想想这张桌子上的原子数量，这是一个非常大的数字，而国际象棋的可能性比这还要大得多。 如果计算机想要在比赛开始时就计算出所有的可能性，那么它需要处理的数字，要比已知宇宙中的原子数量还要多。 我们宇宙中的星系数量非常庞大，有数十亿个，而每一个星系中又有无数的原子。 所以，国际象棋的可能性是一个天文数字。

Lex: So, mind blown. It’s impossible.

莱克斯: 太不可思议了，这根本不可能做到。

John: Okay. So no computer is ever going to be able to work with those kinds of numbers, okay? You, that I don’t even know if future generations of quantum computers could, could work it with those kind of numbers. So that’s the fundamental problem, okay? The number of options in a, in a chess match is just so astronomically large that no computer could ever figure out all the, the available options and make decisions in a given time frame. So that’s the fundamental problem. So as Lex correctly pointed out, the way you get around this is by the use of heuristics. These are rules of thumb, which give general guidelines to action. So, for example, in Jiu-Jitsu I could give you a general rule of thumb, uh, “Don’t turn your back on your opponent,” okay? That’s a solid piece of advice. There are obviously some exceptions to that rule, but it’s a good, solid piece of advice to give a beginner. The moment you give that heuristic rule, you rule out a lot of options, okay? You’ve already told someone, “Don’t turn your back, don’t turn your back” on someone. So a lot of possibilities have just been turned away right there. So you’ve cut the number of options in half right there just by giving one heuristic rule. Okay? If you were decent at, it’s not great, but decent, and you knew enough to give, say, 10 heuristic rules, you could chop that initially vast number of options down by a vast amount. And now you’re starting to get to a point where if the computer had sufficient computational power, it could start getting through the number of options in that acceptable time frame. So that’s the general pattern of the development. Now, things started getting very interesting in the mid-1990s with IBM’s computer, Deep Blue. There was a great chess champion of the late 1980s and early 19, through the 1990s, called Garry Kasparov, who had been more or less undefeated for a decade. In 1996, he took on IBM’s computer, Deep Blue.

约翰: 没错，没有任何计算机能够处理如此庞大的数据量。 即使是未来的量子计算机，我也不知道它们是否能够处理这样的数据量。 所以，这就是问题的关键。 在一场国际象棋比赛中，可能的选项数量太多了，任何计算机都无法在有限的时间内计算出所有的可能性，并做出决策。 所以，正如莱克斯所说，解决这个问题的方法就是使用 heuristics，也就是经验法则，它能够提供一些行动的 general guidelines。 比如，在巴西柔术中，我可以给你一条经验法则：“不要背对你的对手”。 这是一条很实用的建议，当然也有一些例外情况，但对于初学者来说，这是一条非常重要的建议。 当你给出这条经验法则时，你就已经排除掉了很多可能性。 你已经告诉他，不要背对对手，所以很多动作就都不可能出现了。 你只需要给出这一条经验法则，就将可能的选项数量减少了一半。 如果你能够给出 10 条这样的经验法则，你就能将可能的选项数量减少到一个 manageable 的范围。 这样一来，只要计算机的运算能力足够强大，它就能在可接受的时间内计算出所有可能性，并做出决策。 这就是国际象棋程序发展的一般模式。 在 20 世纪 90 年代中期，IBM 的“深蓝”计算机让事情变得非常有趣。 当时，加里·卡斯帕罗夫是世界上最伟大的国际象棋冠军，他已经保持了十年的不败纪录。 1996 年，他接受了“深蓝”的挑战。

Lex: Just to correct the record, he was undefeated.

莱克斯: 纠正一下，他是没有输过任何比赛。

John: I apologize.

约翰: 抱歉，我说错了。

Lex: Russian. Got it.

莱克斯: 俄罗斯人。 你懂的。

John: Gotta make sure they get very nationalistic about their chess. Be careful of these guys.

约翰: 俄罗斯人对国际象棋充满民族主义情感，我们可不能得罪他们。

Lex: Deep Blue lost the first confrontation, I believe, in 1996. It was competitive, but lost.

莱克斯: “深蓝”在 1996 年的第一次比赛中输给了卡斯帕罗夫。 虽然比赛过程很激烈，但它最终还是输了。

John: Then, in 1997, uh, Deep Blue won, and it wasn’t a complete walkover. Kasparov, I believe, won one of the matches, but, uh, they did unequivo, er, Deeply unequivocally won the confrontation, and it was seen as like this watershed moment where a computer beat the best human chess player on the planet. And that was it. There was, there’s no coming back from that.

约翰: 然后在 1997 年，“深蓝”赢了，但这并不是一场一边倒的比赛。 我记得卡斯帕罗夫赢了一场比赛，但“深蓝”最终还是赢得了比赛的胜利。 这场比赛被视为一个 watershed moment，因为计算机第一次战胜了世界上最优秀的人类国际象棋棋手。 从那以后，计算机就再也没有输给过人类。

Lex: I think it would be remembered as one of the biggest moments in computing history is, is really when the first time a machine beat a human at a thing that humans really care about in the, in the domain of intellectual pursuits.

莱克斯: 我认为，这会被铭记为计算机发展史上最重要的时刻之一，因为这是机器第一次在人类真正关心的智力领域战胜了人类。

John: Yeah. It was, it was a, it was a powerful, powerful moment. Now, not only was that a powerful moment, but things started getting truly interesting from that moment forward because then you started having different areas of development. The general way in which the progress is made, from those early starts in 1968 all the way through to Deep Blue’s victory, was of the use of heuristic rules that brought down the number of potential options to a manageable level. As computer power increased, then it could make faster and faster and wiser and wiser decisions and make them at a rate which no human, even the best human, could keep up with. So, that was the general way in which the, the debate went. Um, but things got more interesting after this with the advent of computers that, as you pointed out, make use of so-called machine learning. There were, a company put out, uh, a program, AlphaZero, which can look at the basic rule structures of chess, and then ultimately play itself in trial games and make trial and error assessment of what are good and bad strategies so that with no human intervention a computer could start doing remarkable things. Not only did uh, this company create AlphaZero, and there were some other ones, too, that they fought, not only in chess, but in the much more complex Asian game of Go, which has far more potential options than chess, or, by a very significant margin.

约翰: 没错，这是一个非常重要的时刻。 从那以后，事情变得更加有趣了，因为出现了不同的发展方向。 从 1968 年的早期尝试到“深蓝”的胜利，国际象棋程序取得进步的主要方式是使用 heuristics，将可能的选项数量减少到计算机可以处理的范围。 随着计算机运算能力的提高，它能够更快地做出更明智的决策，其速度远远超过任何人类棋手，即使是最顶尖的棋手也无法与之匹敌。 这就是当时国际象棋程序的发展方向。 但随着“机器学习”的出现，事情变得更加有趣了。 有一家公司开发了一个名为“AlphaZero”的程序，它能够学习国际象棋的基本规则，然后在模拟环境中自己和自己下棋，通过试错来学习什么是好的策略，什么是坏的策略，最终达到了一种无需人类干预就能战胜人类棋手的水平。 这家公司不仅开发了“AlphaZero”，还开发了其他一些程序，它们不仅能够下国际象棋，还能下更复杂的围棋，而且它们的水平都远远超过人类棋手。

Lex: Yes.

莱克斯: 没错。

John: These machine learning programs not only easily defeat any human in chess, but in Go as well. And what’s truly remarkable is they weren’t just beating them. When AlphaZero took on a rival chess program, which, by itself, was already superior to any human, it only required four hours, starting from learning the rules of chess, to figuring out how to beat the second most powerful chess program in the world.

约翰: 这些机器学习程序不仅能够轻松战胜任何人类国际象棋棋手，还能战胜任何人类围棋棋手。 更令人惊叹的是，它们不仅仅是战胜了人类，当“AlphaZero”挑战另一个国际象棋程序时，那个程序本身的水平就已经超过了所有人类棋手，而“AlphaZero”只用了四个小时，就从学习国际象棋规则开始，学会了如何战胜这个世界上第二强大的国际象棋程序。

Lex: That’s insane. That’s literally like taking a human, telling the rules of chess, they play some games with themselves for four hours, and they go out and beat Garry Kasparov. This is like, to me, this is a truly exciting development, far beyond even what Deep Blue did.

莱克斯: 这太不可思议了！ 这就像你随便找一个人，告诉他国际象棋的规则，让他自己练习四个小时，然后他就能出去打败加里·卡斯帕罗夫。 这对我来说是一个 truly exciting 的进展，它远远超过了“深蓝”的成就。

John: I like how you said “exciting,” not “terrifying.”

约翰: 我喜欢你用“令人兴奋”而不是“可怕”来形容它。

Lex: Yeah, because I agree with you on the exciting.

莱克斯: 是的，我同意你的观点，这的确令人兴奋。

John: Now, things also get exciting in a different direction. There is another possibility which few people foresaw after the Deep Blue episode. This is where a new form of chess started to emerge, sometimes called cyborg chess, or centaur chess, where humans of moderate chess level, playing ability, not world champions, just decent, but not great, I guess you might say like purple belts in Jiu-Jitsu, allied themselves with computers. So the humans and computers worked as a cyborg team. The humans supplied the heuristic insight, the computers supplied the computational power, and fascinatingly, they proved to be superior to both the best humans and the best chess programs. The united force of human insight, with heuristics, with computers’ ability to go through, uh, numbers in far more rapid form than any human could ever hope to do proved to be one of the strongest combinations and enabled that pairing of human and computer to overwhelm both the best single human and the best single computer. That adds a whole new level of fascination to this topic. So, to wind things up here, we’ve got this fascinating initial question from Lex: the idea of “could there be a computer, inside a robot, which doesn’t have any special physical properties.” This is “mind versus mind” because the bodies negate each other, the robot is the same body as Gordon Ryan. This is a thought experiment. “What would it take to create a mind that would defeat the mind of Gordon Ryan?” Based on the chess example, it would appear that this is entirely feasible at some point in the future, and in fact, I would go further and say it’s actually quite likely, based on what we’ve seen from the example of chess. The rate of progress in AI in the last 20 years or has dwarfed anything from the previous 50 years, and the rate continues to increase. We’re talking now, at a level, with machine learning defeating world champions in chess and Go in four hours. Like, just from starting from the rules of the sport. Um, this is, this is going to be difficult for humans to keep up with. Now, in humans’ favor, could we take Gordon Ryan and put a chip inside his brain that created the same cyborg effect as we saw in centaur chess and cyborg chess, and then take Gordon Ryan to a new level where suddenly his computational powers were massively increased? He still has his heuristic insight, but he has vastly augmented computational powers. That’s the interesting battle. I, uh, you asked a great question, Lex. Let me give you my initial push or for an answer would be, that if it’s just Gordon Ryan versus your, your, uh, your robot technology, in 10 years, I would say with machine learning, I say you guys win every time. But if it is cyborg Gordon Ryan, where he’s part, part Gordon Ryan with heuristics and part machine, then and, now that’s where I throw the question back at you, young man: what do you think?

约翰: 没错，这些机器学习程序不仅能够轻松战胜任何人类国际象棋棋手，还能战胜任何人类围棋棋手，而且他们的优势非常明显。 更令人惊叹的是，“AlphaZero”只用了四个小时，就从学习国际象棋规则开始，学会了如何战胜这个世界上第二强大的国际象棋程序，而那个程序本身的水平就已经超过了所有人类棋手。 这的确是一个非常 fascinating 的现象。 在“深蓝”战胜卡斯帕罗夫之后，还出现了一种新的国际象棋形式，叫做“半机械人国际象棋”或者“半人马国际象棋”。 在这种比赛中，水平一般的棋手（不是世界冠军，但也还不错，就像巴西柔术中的紫带选手）可以和计算机组队，形成一个“半机械人”团队。 人类棋手提供策略指导，计算机负责计算，结果，他们发现，这种组合的棋力，要高于最优秀的人类棋手和最优秀的国际象棋程序。 人类的 strategic thinking 和 heuristics，加上计算机强大的运算能力，两者结合在一起，形成了一种非常强大的力量，能够战胜最优秀的人类棋手和最优秀的计算机程序。 这为“人机大战”增添了新的趣味。 回到莱克斯最初提出的那个问题：“我们是否能够制造出一个机器人，它的 physical 能力和戈登·瑞恩一样，但内部的‘大脑’却是一台计算机，它没有任何特殊的 physical 属性，而是完全依靠计算能力来战胜戈登·瑞恩？” 这是一个非常有趣的 thought experiment。 我们如何才能创造出一个能够战胜戈登·瑞恩的“大脑”呢？ 从国际象棋的例子来看，这在未来是完全有可能实现的，而且可能性非常大。 因为在过去的 20 年里，人工智能技术的发展速度远远超过了过去 50 年的发展速度，而且这个速度还在不断加快。 现在的机器学习程序，只需要四个小时就能从学习规则开始，战胜国际象棋和围棋的世界冠军。 这对人类来说是一个巨大的挑战。 那么，反过来想，我们是否可以把戈登·瑞恩变成一个“半机械人”，在他的大脑中植入一个芯片，让他拥有计算机的运算能力？ 他仍然拥有自己的 strategic thinking 和 heuristics，但他的运算能力得到了极大的增强。 这将会是一场非常有趣的较量。 莱克斯，你问了一个很好的问题，我的初步想法是，如果只是戈登·瑞恩对抗机器人，那么十年后，机器学习程序每次都能战胜他。 但如果戈登·瑞恩变成了一个“半机械人”，一半是人脑，一半是机器，那么结果就很难预料了。 年轻人，你觉得呢？

Lex: Well, it’s fascinating to hear your answer. That’s very interesting because, because there’s a, there’s a lot of different ways you can build a cyborg Gordon Ryan. So one is, there’s the Neuralink way, which is basically, say, doing what you’re suggesting, which is expanding the computational capabilities of Gordon Ryan’s brain, like directly being able to communicate between a computer and the brain. So most of, you preserve uh, most of what there is in the human body, including the nervous system and the, the computing system we currently have that’s biological, and expanding it with the computer. There’s also, on the cyborg chess front, the, like Magnus Carlsen, the current world champion in chess, he studies AlphaZero games. Like, that it’s not a regular thing for high-level grandmasters, from what I understand. Almost every uh, chess master now studies computer games for, for inspiration like that, just as um great chess players from the past used to go back into old leather-bound books of previous grandmasters, and study games and books. Nowadays, most people when they want to study the most perfect games, they actually study programs like AlphaZero.

莱克斯: 你的回答很有意思，因为创造“半机械人戈登·瑞恩”有很多种方法。 一种方法是像 Neuralink 那样，直接将计算机和人脑连接起来，扩展人脑的运算能力。 也就是说，保留人体的绝大部分，包括神经系统和我们现有的生物计算系统，然后用计算机来增强它的功能。 另一种方法是，像现任国际象棋世界冠军马格努斯·卡尔森那样，去学习“AlphaZero”的棋谱。 据我所知，这对于顶尖的国际象棋棋手来说，已经不是什么新鲜事了。 现在几乎所有的国际象棋大师都会研究计算机的棋谱，从中寻找灵感，就像过去的大师们会去研究前辈的棋谱和书籍一样。 现在，如果你想学习最完美的棋局，你应该去研究“AlphaZero”这样的程序。

John: Yeah, and it’s not just for inspiration, it’s education. It’s, I mean, it’s literally part of their training, right?

约翰: 没错，他们这样做不仅仅是为了寻找灵感，更是为了学习。 这已经成为他们训练的一部分。

Lex: Yeah. This isn’t like a fun side thing, it’s just the main way to get better. So, um, so there’s a certain element there where even our human brains can be trained by observing the partial explorations of an AI system. In the space of grappling, that could be actually in simulation. It doesn’t have to be in the physical world, it could be, uh, in, if we construct sufficiently good biomechanical models of human beings, machines can learn how they grapple. There’s, there’s quite a bit of that already. OpenAI has the system of, uh, there’s like sumo wrestlers, with some basic goals of pushing each other off of a platform, and you know, nothing from the, you don’t even know, so you have a basic model of a bipedal system. It doesn’t even know in the beginning how to stand up, it just falls right? So, it has to learn how to get up. And they do that through self-play. They, they learn how to get up, they learn how to move enough to achieve the final goal, which is to push your opponent off of the thing.

莱克斯: 是的，这已经成为他们提高棋力的主要途径。 所以，从某种意义上来说，即使是人类的大脑，也可以通过观察 AI 系统的探索来学习和提高。 在格斗领域，我们可以尝试在模拟环境中进行训练。 不一定非要在现实世界中进行，我们可以建立一个人体的生物力学模型，让机器学习如何在模拟环境中进行格斗。 现在已经有了一些类似的研究，比如 OpenAI 开发了一个“相扑机器人”系统，它们的目标是将对方推下平台。 它们一开始连站立都不会，只会摔倒，但它们可以通过 self-play 来学习如何站起来，以及如何移动身体来实现最终目标，也就是将对方推下平台。

John: Fascinating.

约翰: 这很有意思。

Lex: So, they’ve learned that now. OpenAI is not, those folks are currently not that interested in the grappling world, so they kind of stop there, but it’s very possible, in stimulation, to then develop ideas. In fact, this is something I should probably do because it’s pretty natural to do, and easy, is ideas of control and submission, and all, all the you know, you add the ability to, I don’t know how to put it nicely, but to, uh, to choke your opponent, uh, and, uh, to break their body parts off, which is what, is, add that in, and what kind of ideas they’ll come up with is very fascinating. I actually don’t know, until this conversation, I don’t know why I never even thought about that. I’ve been very obsessed with just like walking and, and running and all those kinds of things. Like evolving different strategies for when you have a bunch of. So, one difficult thing for robots is, when you have uneven terrain and there’s uncertainty about the terrain, it’s how to keep walking, or when, when there’s a bunch of things being thrown at you, all that kind of stuff, and you learn, uh, through self-play, how to be able to navigate those uncertain environments, when there’s a lot of weird objects and all those kinds of things. There’s no reason why you can’t just do that with, uh, with submissions and so on, in simulation. That’ll be actually fascinating. But, once, we might be surprised by the kind of strategies in simulation these AI systems will develop, and that might make a much better Gordon Ryan and much better John Danaher. In, wait, it, in asking the Dean Lister question of like, “Why are we only using, why are we not doing X?” But on the actual, sort of grappling event, in the physical space, I’ve been very surprised and a little bit disappointed by how difficult it’s to build a system that’s able to have the body of Gordon Ryan, or a human being, actually. Which means it’s not just the, the biomechanics, which is very difficult to do, but also all of the senses that are involved. Be able to perceive the world as richly, to be able to, there’s something called soft robotics, which is, is incredibly difficult to do. Through touch, understand the hardness of things. We don’t understand, as human beings, just how much we’re able to touch, to experience the world, and to manipulate the world. Like, the, the, the process of picking up a cup is very similar to the process of grappling, all the feeling that you do, all the leverage that you’re applying, there is so many degrees of freedom in both the, in the interactive sense, in the sensing, and the applying. Sensing and applying, you’re doing that through so much of your body, that’s just going to be very difficult to build a system that’s able to experience the world and act onto the world as richly as we humans can.

莱克斯: 他们已经学会了如何做到这一点。 OpenAI 的研究人员目前对格斗领域不太感兴趣，所以他们没有继续深入研究。 但我们完全有可能在模拟环境中开发出新的技术，实际上，我应该去尝试一下，因为它很简单，也很自然。 我们可以让机器学习如何控制和降服对手，以及如何，嗯，如何勒住对手，如何折断他们的肢体。 我不知道该怎么委婉地表达，但我相信，机器学习程序能够想出很多 fascinating 的新技术。 直到今天和你聊起这个话题，我才意识到，我以前竟然从来没有想过这个问题。 我一直痴迷于研究机器人的行走、跑步等等，如何让它们在复杂的环境中移动，比如在崎岖不平的地形上行走，或者躲避障碍物。 我们可以通过 self-play 来训练机器人，让它们学会如何在不确定的环境中导航，以及如何与各种奇怪的物体进行交互。 我们也可以用同样的方法来训练机器人学习格斗技术，比如降服等等。 我相信，AI 系统在模拟环境中能够开发出很多让我们意想不到的技术，甚至可能会创造出比戈登·瑞恩更强大，比约翰·丹纳赫尔更厉害的格斗机器人。 这就像迪恩·利斯特问的那个问题：“我们为什么只使用一半的身体？” 但现实是，在物理世界中，制造一个像戈登·瑞恩那样灵活的机器人，或者说制造一个人形机器人，是非常困难的。 这不仅是因为生物力学方面的挑战，还因为机器人需要拥有和人类一样的感知能力。 它们需要能够像人类一样感知世界，才能像人类一样做出反应。 有一种叫做“软体机器人”的技术，它非常难实现。 人类可以通过触觉来感知物体的硬度，但机器人很难做到这一点。 我们人类习以为常的触觉、感知和操控能力，对于机器人来说都是巨大的挑战。 拿起一个杯子，这个对我们来说再简单不过的动作，对于机器人来说却非常困难，因为它涉及到大量的感知和控制。 我们用身体的很多部位来感知和控制世界，而机器人很难做到这一点。 所以，要制造一个能够像人类一样感知和行动的机器人，是非常困难的。

John: Yeah. If, um, if picking up a cup is a seemingly insurmountable challenge, then, then taking someone down, controlling them, getting past their legs, that’s going to be one hell of a project.

约翰: 没错，如果连“拿起一个杯子”这样的动作都难以实现，那么“将对手摔倒、控制住他们、突破他们的防守”就更加困难了。

Lex: Exactly. I mean, there could be shortcuts, but I mean, currently, that’s, um, that’s the field called, uh, robotic manipulation, which is picking up objects. Usually they have like a ball and a triangular object, and your whole task is to like pick it up and move it around. Generalizing that to the human body is harder, but perhaps not so, so not as hard as we might think. The question is, how do you construct experiments where you can do that safely? And chase, that’s very easy. But here, it’s very, very problematic, um,

莱克斯: 没错，也许我们可以找到一些捷径，但目前，机器人操作领域的研究重点是让机器人学会抓取物体。 他们通常会用一个球和一个三角形物体来进行训练，让机器人学习如何抓取和移动它们。 要想让机器人学会抓取和操控人体，难度当然更大，但也许没有我们想象的那么难。 关键问题是，如何才能安全地进行这样的实验？ 让机器人去抓球很简单，但让它们去抓人真的非常棘手，嗯……

John: I guess you could just have robot versus robot, teamed up with each other, and then they learn, and they’re about to take on a human opponent.

约翰: 也许可以让机器人之间互相训练，然后再去挑战人类对手。

Lex: Yes. Exactly. So you have two physical robots that interact with each other. Everything you’ve said so far suggests that many of the problems, these tactical elements, they’re easy tasks for humans, so which becomes more powerful more quickly? Robots that are taught to think like humans or humans that are given the computational power of, uh, of, of computers and robots themselves? Which wins first: a cyborg Gordon Ryan, or an artificial robot Gordon Ryan? Really, really strong question.

莱克斯: 没错，就是让两个实体机器人互相练习。 从你刚才的描述来看，那些战术策略对人类来说很容易理解，但对机器人来说却很难。 所以，哪个会更快地变得更强大？ 是被训练得像人类一样思考的机器人，还是被赋予了计算机运算能力的人类？ 是“半机械人戈登·瑞恩”会先取得胜利，还是“人工智能机器人戈登·瑞恩”会先取得胜利？ 这是一个非常非常棒的问题。

John: And I think, I think by far the cyborg Gordon Ryan.

约翰: 我认为，毫无疑问，是“半机械人戈登·瑞恩”。

Lex: Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking here.

莱克斯: 是的，我也是这么想的。

John: The problems you’re talking about, uh, with regards to the robots, those are, those are deep problems. Like, if, if picking up a cup is problematic, it’s going to be damn difficult to, but to a human, let’s say, you know, that two-year-old can do that.

约翰: 你刚才提到的那些机器人面临的问题，都是非常 fundamental 的问题。 如果连“拿起一个杯子”这样的动作都很难做到，那么其他的动作就更加困难了。 但对人类来说，即使是一个两岁的孩子，也能轻松地做到这一点。

Lex: You’re highlighting a very important differences. Human beings have something called “common sense” that we don’t know how to build into computers currently. That’s what picking up the cup is, is some basic rules about the way this world works. We’re able to, this is, when we’re children and we’ll crawl around, we pick up,

莱克斯: 你点出了一个非常重要的区别。 人类拥有“common sense”，而我们目前还不知道如何将它赋予计算机。 “拿起一个杯子”这个动作就体现了这一点，它包含了一些关于世界如何运作的基本规则。 当我们还是孩子的时候，我们会在房间里爬来爬去，我们会拿起，

John: What humans don’t have that machines have is incredible computational power and access to infinite knowledge. Computers can do that. So if, if you have a Gordon Ryan with the infinite knowledge and compute power that’s just going to, because we know how to do that, that, that’s going to blow out of the water,

约翰: 而机器的优势在于强大的运算能力和获取无限知识的能力。 计算机可以做到这一点。 所以，如果戈登·瑞恩拥有了无限的知识和运算能力，那么他将会，嗯，因为我们已经知道如何做到这一点，他将会变得无比强大，

Lex: Update on the, um, uh, the phenomenon of cyborg, or centaur chess, there was some debate as to whether or not, um, cyborg chess teams could stay competitive with the, uh, the latest machine learning. Has there been any update on that?

莱克斯: 说到“半机械人国际象棋”或者“半人马国际象棋”，之前有人争论说，这种人机组合是否能够和最新的机器学习程序抗衡。 现在有新的进展吗？

John: Yeah. I believe, at this point, machines dominate over the machine human pairs.

约翰: 是的，我认为现在机器已经完全战胜了人机组合。

Lex: With the human pairs.

莱克斯: 战胜了人机组合。

John: When they first came out they were good chess players, but not great chess players.

约翰: 最初那些与计算机组队的棋手，水平还不错，但不是顶尖的棋手。

Lex: Does it make any difference if you have, say, Garry Kasparov and, uh, and a, a computer work in unison versus,

莱克斯: 如果和计算机组队的是加里·卡斯帕罗夫，而不是那些水平一般的棋手，结果会有区别吗？

John: Yeah.

约翰: 当然。

Lex: Joe Blow from,

莱克斯: 某个普通人，

John: No. No, it does make a huge difference, but yeah, both are destroyed by machines. That are,

约翰: 不，当然有区别，但结果都一样，都会被机器击败。

Lex: Interesting. And it’s not even competitive?

莱克斯: 有意思。 难道差距已经大到没有竞争力了吗？

John: No.

约翰: 是的，没有竞争力。

Lex: No.

莱克斯: 好吧。

John: It’s not competitive. But they also lost interest in this kind of, uh, idea, so I think there’s still competitions between human-machine pairs versus human-machine pairs, almost like, uh, to see how the two work together, but in terms of machine versus human-machine pair, machines still dominate.

约翰: 两者之间的差距已经没有竞争力了。 而且，人们对这种人机组合也失去了兴趣，所以现在仍然有人机组合对抗人机组合的比赛，主要是为了研究人机协作的方式，但在机器对抗人机组合的比赛中，机器仍然占据绝对优势。

Lex: Interesting. So, and, and now we’ve retreated back, as human beings, caring mostly about human-versus-human competition, which is probably what the future will look like. It’s very interesting to think but like that, that, in chess, happened really quickly, it won’t happen, and it wasn’t so painful in chess because we care about chess, but it’s not so fundamental to human society. In, uh, when you started talking about cyborg Gordon Ryan’s, which really, beyond grappling, is referring to robots operating physical space, or human robot hybrids operating physical space, you’re talking about, our society is now full of cyborgs.

莱克斯: 很有意思。 所以，现在我们又回到了人类之间的竞争，这可能也是未来的趋势。 在国际象棋领域，机器很快就战胜了人类，而且这个过程并不痛苦，因为国际象棋只是一项游戏，它对人类社会的影响并不大。 但当你谈到“半机械人戈登·瑞恩”时，你指的不仅仅是格斗，而是那些在现实世界中活动的机器人，或者人机混合体。 我们的社会现在已经充满了“半机械人”，

John: Yes.

约翰: 没错。

Lex: And that, that transition might be very painful, or transformative in a way we can’t even predict. And that very much has applications as both China and US now have legalized, is autonomous weapon systems. So, use of these kinds of systems, and military applications. So, it used to be there’d been a big call in the AI community to ban autonomous weapons, so the use of artificial intelligence in, in war, just like bio weapons are banned, uh, internationally. So you’re not allowed to use bioweapons in war. And actually, most people, even terrorists, have kind of agreed on this ban. It’s not like a, there’s been a quiet agreement, like, “We’re not going to be doing this because everybody’s going to get really pissed off.” With autonomous weapon systems, that’s not been the case, with China has said that they’re going to be using AI in their military, and, uh, the US, in 2021, just released a report saying that they’re going to um, they’re, they’re going to add increasing amounts of artificial intelligence into our military systems, into drones, into just everything that’s doing any kind of both strategic and actual like bombing and, uh, defense systems, I presume. Uh, a drone army would easily defeat a human army in the, in the near future, like, um, I mean, think about, just off the top of my head, just think about the implication of kamikaze drones versus a naval fleet. I mean, kamikazes, was humans in World War II, did terrible damage to our Navy. Imagine swarms of, of uh, mechanical kamikazes which have no fear, no remorse.

莱克斯: 这个转变的过程可能会非常痛苦，也可能会给人类社会带来无法预知的改变。 中国和美国都已经将“自主武器系统”合法化，这意味着这类系统将在军事领域得到广泛应用。 之前，人工智能领域曾经呼吁禁止“自主武器”，也就是禁止在战争中使用人工智能，就像国际社会禁止使用生物武器一样。 现在，大多数国家，甚至包括恐怖分子，都默认了这项禁令。 大家似乎达成了一个共识：“我们不能使用生物武器，因为这会激怒所有人”。 但“自主武器系统”却不在此列。 中国已经宣布，他们将在军队中使用人工智能，而美国在 2021 年也发布了一份报告，表示他们将在军事系统中，包括无人机和所有执行战略任务和实际作战任务的系统中，使用越来越多的 AI 技术。 在不久的将来，无人机部队将能够轻松击败人类军队。 想想看，如果用“神风无人机”去攻击海军舰队，会造成什么样的后果？ 在二战中，日本的神风特攻队对美国海军造成了巨大的伤害，而“神风无人机”更加可怕，因为它们没有恐惧，也不会 remorse。

John: I mean,

约翰: 嗯，

Lex: But it’s very, uh, inefficient. Kamikaze is very inefficient. You want to be very, like war is, it’s the same discussion to Jiu-Jitsu, right? You want to be, uh, you want to create an asymmetry of power, and you want to be efficient as in the way you deliver that power. It’s actually goes back to the picking up a cup. Currently, a lot of things we do in war, like, so most of the drones that you hear about, they’re not autonomous, not most, all. They’re usually piloted by, they’re piloted remotely by humans, and humans are really good at this kind of what’s necessary to deliver the most damage: targeted damage, effective as part of the largest strategy, have about bombing the area, or all that kind of stuff. I don’t know how difficult that is to automate. I think the biggest concern, I actually have a sense that’s very difficult to automate. The biggest concern is almost like an incompetent application of this and, uh, consequences that are not anticipated. So, you have a drone army where you say, “We want to target,” you give it power to target a particular terrorist, and then there’s some bug in the system that has, like for example, has a large uncertainty about the location of that terrorist and so decides to bomb an entire city. You know? Almost like, as a bug, a software bug. I’m much more concerned about like bad programming and software engineering that I am about like malevolent AI systems that, uh, destroy the world. So the more we rely on automation, this is the lesson of human history, the more we give to AI, to software, to robotic systems, the more we forget how to supervise and oversee some of the edge cases, all the weird ways that things go wrong. And then the more stupid software bugs can lead to huge damage. Like, you know, even like nuclear explosions, those kinds of things. If we add AI into the launch systems for nuclear weapons, for example, I think human history teaches us that software bugs is what will leave, lead to World War III, not malevolent AI, or human beings.

莱克斯: 但“神风无人机”的效率很低，就像神风特攻队一样，效率很低。 你想要的是，就像巴西柔术一样，创造一种力量的不对称性，并且以高效的方式来传递这种力量。 这又回到了“拿起一个杯子”的问题。 现在，我们所使用的无人机，都不是 自主的，而是由人类远程操控的。 人类非常擅长判断如何才能造成最大的伤害，比如定点清除，或者作为战略的一部分，对某个区域进行轰炸。 我不知道如何才能将这些能力自动化，但我感觉很难做到。 我最担心的是，由于操作不当，或者出现不可预见的后果。比如，你派出一支无人机部队去消灭某个恐怖分子，但由于系统中存在 bug，导致无人机无法精确定位目标，最终炸毁了整座城市。 这就像是一个软件bug。 我更担心的是糟糕的编程和软件工程，而不是那些想要毁灭世界的恶意AI。 人类历史告诉我们，我们越依赖自动化，就越容易忘记如何去监督和控制那些 边缘情况，那些可能导致灾难的意外情况。 那些愚蠢的 software bugs 可能会造成巨大的破坏，甚至可能引发核战争。 如果我们将 AI 应用到核武器的发射系统中，那么最终导致第三次世界大战的，很可能不是恶意的 AI或人类，而是软件bugs。

John: Interesting. By the way, I deeply appreciate how knowledgeable you are about the history of artificial intelligence. That was awesome.

约翰: 你的分析很有意思。 顺便说一句，你对人工智能历史的了解程度令我印象深刻，太棒了。

Lex: Oh, no. It’s fascinating stuff. You know, I remember reading when I was a child about you know, Turing tests and things like this, and visionaries from the 1950s had ideas, but to see it come this far is just fascinating to me. Um, okay, so so what can we as Jiu-Jitsu players take away from this? We saw that when it comes to computers versus humans in chess tournaments, humans had something truly valuable to give to the computers. That was heuristic rules. In every coaching program that I run, I make an endless quest to search out and find effective heuristic rules. That’s the basis of a good training program. Heuristic rules and principles give vast informational content which can rapidly increase your performance on the mat, just as they rapidly increase the performance of chess computers to overcome the human adversaries. The great human weakness is computational power. Most people vastly overestimate their ability to reason and problem-solve under stress. In fact, numerous psychological studies have shown that humans can balance a relatively small number of, uh, of competing options in, in, in stressful decision-making. But what we do have, what is it, the great and unique human gift, is this idea to come up and arrive at heuristic rules and principles which turn out to be very effective guides to behavior, for both human behavior and artificially intelligent behavior. Make that your focus in study. Don’t try to remember 10,000 different details on a move. Okay? That’s, that’s human weakness, not human strength. Our strength is heuristics. Make that your focus, not endless computations over 25 details here merged with 27 details here. That’s not, that’s not what humans are good at. The uniquely human strength is arriving at these heuristic rules and principles which guide our behavior, which provides simplifications which enable us to take vast amounts of information and parry it down to a few simple rules that effectively guide our behavior. Take that core insight from the discussion that Lex and I just had. It was a complex discussion, we both apologize for going a little bit overwatch,

莱克斯: 这太有意思了。 我从小就喜欢阅读关于人工智能的书籍，比如图灵测试等等，20 世纪 50 年代的那些 visionaries 提出的很多想法，现在都变成了现实，这让我感到非常 fascinating。 那么，我们作为巴西柔术练习者，能够从“人机大战”中学到什么呢？ 我们看到，在国际象棋比赛中，人类能够提供给计算机最有价值的东西，就是 heuristics，也就是经验法则。 在我所有的训练计划中，我都会努力去寻找和发现有效的经验法则，这是一套好的训练计划的基础。 经验法则和原则能够提供大量的信息，帮助你快速提高技术水平，就像它们帮助国际象棋程序战胜人类棋手一样。 人类最大的弱点是运算能力，大多数人都会高估自己在压力下的推理和解决问题的能力。 很多心理学研究表明，人类在压力下只能同时处理很少的选项。 而人类最独特的天赋，就是能够总结经验，形成一些有效的经验法则和原则，用来指导自己的行为，以及人工智能的行为。 所以，你应该把注意力集中在学习和总结经验法则上，而不是去记忆那些复杂的细节。 不要试图去记住一个动作的 10000 个细节，那样做只会暴露你的弱点，而不是你的强项。 你应该专注于学习 heuristics，而不是去进行那些无休止的计算。 人类并不擅长做那些事情。 人类最擅长的，是总结经验，形成一些指导行为的经验法则和原则，将大量的信息简化成几条简单的规则。 这就是我们刚才讨论的核心内容，这是一场很复杂的讨论，我们可能会说得有点过头，

John: That was awesome.

约翰: 你说的太棒了。

Lex: Love it.

莱克斯: 我很喜欢你刚才的分析。

John: Than dragging you into some details there, but take that away from it.

约翰: 我们刚才的讨论可能有点过于深入细节了，但希望你能记住这一点。

Lex: Love it.

莱克斯: 我会记住的。

John: It’ll make you better at Jiu-Jitsu.

约翰: 它会让你成为更优秀的巴西柔术选手。

Lex: Sorry, Lex. That was, uh, that was a really exciting discussion, and, uh, the depths of knowledge, in the dimensions of knowledge you have and interests you have, is just fascinating. Is there advice you have for complete beginners, for white belts that are starting Jiu-Jitsu that are listening to this? They haven’t done Jiu-Jitsu. I know there’s a lot of people who are super curious to start. Is there advice you would give them on their journey?

莱克斯: 不好意思，莱克斯，刚才的讨论真是太精彩了，你的知识涉猎之广，兴趣之广泛，令我印象深刻。 对于那些正在收听节目的巴西柔术初学者，也就是白带，你有什么建议吗？ 我知道，很多人对巴西柔术都很好奇，想要尝试一下。 你能给他们一些建议，帮助他们踏上巴西柔术的旅程吗？

John: Uh, yeah. I’m just going to talk about just getting better on the mat, okay? Because there’s a thousand other things you can talk about in terms of like morale, and persistence, and, um, “How often they should train?” Is a thousand things, you get, “Break up with your girlfriend or boyfriend,” that’s one. Let’s put that aside. Um, it goes back to what we said earlier, uh, I always advocate: start your training from the ground up, okay? Your first sessions in Jiu-Jitsu you’re going to find, to your horror, that everyone gets on top of you and you can’t get out, and it’s a dispiriting, crushing kind of feeling that you just have no skills, and you have no prospects in the sport. So, your first skill is the skill of being able to free yourself from positional pins. Most of the escapes in Jiu-Jitsu go to guard position, and so once you get someone in your guard they’re going to be looking to pass your guard and get back into those positional pins that you just escaped from, and that’s just as crushing as getting pinned. You feel like every time you try to hold someone a guard, they just efficiently pass you by. So your first two skills: you gotta better get out of any pin, and you gotta better hold someone in your guard. So, pin escapes and guard retention are your first two skills. I generally advocate the idea of learning to fight from your back first and then learning to fight from on top second. Why? Because the brute fact is, when you first start off, you just don’t have enough skills to hold top position or gain top position through a takedown. So, inevitably, you’re going to end up underneath people for most of your training time. Your training should reflect that in the early days, as a white belt. Start with the first two skills you need. They’re not the most exciting, they’re not sexy skills that are going to make you look stuck in the training room, but they’re going to keep your life long enough to learn those sexy skills in the future that will make you look like a stud. Start with pin escapes, go to guard retention, and focus heavily on those two. When you start to get into offense, start with bottom position, so there’s a clear continuity between your pin escapes, your guard retention, and then your guard itself, okay? You’ve got different options with guard, some of you’re going to like closed guard, some of you are going to like variations of open guard, some of you going to like to be seated, some of you like to be supine, some of you are going to like half guard. As a general rule, this is a heavy generalization, but I’m going to give it to you, in my experience, most people benefit the most by starting with half guard first. I know that traditionally Jiu-Jitsu has been taught closed guard first, and then all the other guards come after that. I’m a big believer in the idea of, start with pin escapes, then go to guard retention, and then start with half guard bottom. That way, you get a nice continuity between your first three skills and you make good progress over those first critical six months in Jiu-Jitsu.

约翰: 好的，我主要讲讲如何提高技术水平。 关于训练的士气、毅力、“训练频率”等等，还有很多其他方面可以讲，甚至包括“和你的女朋友或男朋友分手”等等。 但我们今天先不讨论这些。 回到我们之前说的，我建议初学者从最基础的技术开始学习，循序渐进地提高。 你刚开始练习巴西柔术的时候，会发现自己总是被别人压制，而且无法逃脱，这种感觉很 frustrating，也很 crushing，你会觉得自己毫无技术可言，在这项运动中看不到任何希望。 所以，你首先要学会的就是如何逃脱压制。 巴西柔术中的大多数逃脱技术都是为了进入防守位置，所以当你成功地控制住对手进入你的防守范围之后，他们就会想方设法地突破你的防守，重新回到压制位置。 而这和被压制一样令人沮丧，你会感觉自己每次都无法有效地控制对手，他们总能轻易地突破你的防守。 所以，你首先要掌握的两项技术是：逃脱压制和防守控制。 我建议先学习如何从下位进行防守，然后再学习如何从上位进行进攻，因为初学者通常没有足够的技术来控制上位，或者通过抱摔获得上位。 所以，在刚开始练习的时候，你大部分时间都会处于下位。 你的训练计划应该反映这一点。 你首先要掌握的这两项技术，虽然不是最 exciting 的，也不会让你看起来很厉害，但它们能够让你“活”得更久，让你有时间去学习那些更高级的技术，最终成为一名优秀的选手。 所以，你应该先练习逃脱压制和防守控制，并重点关注这两项技术。 当你开始学习进攻技术时，也要从下位开始练习，这样才能保证你之前学习的逃脱压制和防守控制技术能够和你的进攻技术衔接起来。 防守的种类有很多，有些你喜欢封闭防守，有些你喜欢开放防守，有些你喜欢坐姿防守，有些你喜欢仰卧防守，有些你喜欢半防守。 总的来说，根据我的经验，大多数人都是从半防守开始练习，获益最大。 我知道，传统上，巴西柔术都是先教封闭防守，然后再教其他防守技术。 但我认为，先练习逃脱压制，再练习防守控制，最后练习半防守，这样你的前三项技术就能形成一个很好的 continuity，让你在最初的六个月里取得快速进步。

Lex: What does it take to get a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu?

莱克斯: 在巴西柔术中，需要什么条件才能获得黑带？

John: Very little. To show up, pay your fees. Don’t set your goals low, okay? Don’t even ask yourself that question. No one cares if you’ve got a black belt, okay? The only thing that counts is the skills you have. I know plenty of black belts that suck, okay? There’s a lot of them out there, um, don’t lower your standards by saying, “I want to get a black belt.” Ask yourself something much more important: “How good do I want to be?”

约翰: 只需要付出很少的努力。 按时参加训练，按时缴费，你就能获得黑带。 但不要把你的目标定得太低，甚至不要去想这个问题。 没有人会在乎你是否拥有黑带，真正重要的是你的技术水平。 我认识很多技术很差的黑带，这样的人很多，所以不要为了获得黑带而降低你的标准。 你应该问自己一个更重要的问题：“我想成为一个多么优秀的选手？”

Lex: You want to be damn good, right? You want to do something, invest time, and you want to be the best you can. Wearing a belt around your waist doesn’t guarantee that. Build skills, focus on that. Let me ask you about the fourth thing, in facet, face of Jiu-Jitsu, which is self-defense. Let’s say the bigger things. I don’t know if you, you know, I don’t know why it’s called “self-defense.” It’s called “street fighting.” Let’s call it “fighting,” okay?

莱克斯: 你想要变得非常优秀，对吧？ 你想做一些有意义的事情，为之投入时间和精力，并且尽力做到最好。 而腰带并不能代表一切，关键在于你的技术水平。 所以，你应该专注于提升自己的技术。 我们来谈谈巴西柔术的第四个方面，也就是自卫。 我不知道为什么要把它叫做“自卫”，它应该叫做“街头格斗”。 我们就把它叫做“格斗”，怎么样？

John: Maybe, maybe you can contest us that terminology.

约翰: 也许你对这个称呼有不同的意见。

Lex: How about “non-sport fighting?”

莱克斯: “非竞技格斗”怎么样？

John: Non-sports fighting? Like “street fighting?” What happens if you go out on a playground, you’re fighting on grass, they’re no longer “street fighting.” It’s like tennis. You have like Wimbledon, like grass courts, and it’s a whole other thing. Uh, no, is there, um, what do you think is the best martial art for “street fighting”? What is the best set of, uh, we talked about advice for white belts to advance in, in, uh, in grappling in Jiu-Jitsu. What is the set of techniques, maybe martial art that is best for “street fighting,” okay?

约翰: “非竞技格斗”？ 你是指“街头格斗”吗？ 如果你在操场上打架，那就不叫“街头格斗”了，因为你是在草地上打架。 这就像网球一样，温布尔登网球公开赛是在草地上进行的，所以它和其他的网球比赛不一样。 那么，你认为哪种格斗术最适合“街头格斗”？ 我们之前讨论了白带如何提高巴西柔术水平，那么，哪种技术组合，或者哪种格斗术，最适合“街头格斗”？

John: Um, again, you’re asking some truly fascinating questions here, um, the way this gets framed as a question is often condemns you to bad answers from the start. This is, uh, as a questioner, I’m, I’m trying to achieve asymmetry of power, and I’m winning. Um, put you in a bad position. Don’t worry so much about, people always gonna say, “You know, is this martial art better or is this martial art better?” The truth is, uh, there’s only one way to say this: combat sports are your best option for self-defense. There are many martial arts, and there is a rough divide between the two: those that fall into combat sports, and those that fall into non-sporting martial arts, where there’s no, uh, competitive live sparring element, where most of the knowledge is limited to theoretical knowledge, reinforced by passive drilling. If you have a choice between a combat sport versus a non-sporting art based around theoretical knowledge and passive drilling, go with a combat sport. Nothing will prepare you for the intensity of a genuine altercation better than combat sports. Many people, as I say these words, are probably horrified to hear me say this and, uh, immediately going to rebut and say, “No. Combat sports is exactly the wrong thing for you to do because they have safety rules, et cetera, et cetera, which uh, would easily be exploited in a real fight. And if I fought a world championship boxer, I would just poke them in the eye or kick them in the groin,” et cetera. You heard these arguments a thousand times. Um, yes, there is some validity to these things, but as a general rule, if you ask me to bet, in any form of street fight, call it what you want, between a combat sport adherent versus someone who simply trains, drills, and talks in terms of theories of what they would do in a fight, I’m going to go with the combat sport guy every single time. Now, having said that, combat sports need to be modified for the use of self-defense, “street fighter.” We haven’t agreed on it to him yet, we’ll figure it out later. Um, what does this modification consist of? Well, some of it is technical. Okay? For example, a boxer in a street fight now has to punch without wrapped or gloved hands, and that’s problematic, okay? Your hands are not really designed for heavy, extended use of clubbing hot objects. There’s a very high likelihood of breaking your hands. Mike Tyson was one of the finest punches that ever lived, but in one of his more famous street fights, against Mitch Green in the late 1980s, he broke his hand with one punch that he threw. His opponent hit the wrong part of the head and broke his hand. And he was one of the most gifted punches of all time. If he can do it, you’ll certainly have trouble protecting your hands, and when you go to throw blows. Um, nonetheless, this is easily modified, and so a boxer can throw with, with, uh, open hands, or with elbows, and so just a small modification and technique can overcome that problem. So what you’ll find is that the general physical, mental conditioning, and skill development that comes from combat sports, allied with technical modifications, and then the most important of all, tactical modifications, will provide your best hope in altercations outside of sports: in the street or wherever you find yourself. The least effective approaches to self-defense that I have observed in my life have been those where, as I said, people talk to theory, drilled on passive opponents, and generally had no engagement in live competition or sparring in their training programs. The most effective, by a landslide, were those that put a heavy emphasis on live sparring and sporting competition, modified both technically and tactically for the circumstances in which they found themselves. People talk, for example, about how you know, um, and with some validity, that weapons will change everything in a, in a street fight. There’s absolute truth to that, but this extends into weapons as well, okay? The most effective forms of, of knife fighting that you’ll see will be those who come from a background in fencing, because it has sparring and a competitive sport aspect to it. But would pure fencing be the appropriate thing? Of course not, you’d have to modify it, but the reflexes, endurance, physical mobility that you gained from the sport of fencing could easily be modified to play craft in a, in a fight situation. What you want to look for, with regards street and self-defense, is not, “Okay, which style should I choose? Should I choose taekwondo? Should I choose karate? Should I choose this variation of kung fu?” No. Focus on the most important thing: “Does it have a sport aspect to it?” Then, once you’ve made sufficient progress in the sport aspect of that martial art, start asking yourself, “What are the requisite modifications and technique and tactics that I have to to use or to input to make it effective for street situations?” That’s always the advice that I give.

约翰: 你又问了一个非常有意思的问题，但这个问题本身就很容易让人给出错误的答案。 作为一个提问者，你总是试图用一些 tricky 的问题来让我陷入困境，但我不会上当。 人们总是喜欢问：“哪种格斗术更厉害？” 但我只想说，对于自卫来说，竞技格斗是最好的选择。 格斗术有很多种，但可以大致分为两类：竞技格斗和非竞技格斗。 非竞技格斗没有实战对抗的环节，大部分的知识都停留在理论层面，只是通过一些简单的 drills 来进行练习。 如果你要在竞技格斗和非竞技格斗之间做出选择，我建议你选择竞技格斗，因为没有什么比竞技格斗更能够让你为实战做好准备。 我知道很多人可能会反对我的观点，他们会说：“竞技格斗有很多规则限制，这些规则在实战中很容易被利用。 如果我和一个拳击世界冠军打架，我只需要戳他的眼睛或者踢他的裆部就行了”。 你可能已经听过很多类似的论调了。 他们的说法也许有一定的道理，但总的来说，如果你让我打赌，在任何形式的街头格斗中，我都会选择那个练习竞技格斗的人，而不是那个只会纸上谈兵的人。 当然，竞技格斗需要根据自卫的需要进行一些调整，我们还没有讨论具体的调整方法，以后再说。 这些调整包括技术方面的调整和战术方面的调整。 比如，拳击手在街头格斗中不能戴拳击手套，所以他们需要学习如何用赤手空拳进行攻击，否则很容易伤到自己的手。 泰森曾经在街头格斗中一拳打断了自己的手，因为他打到了对手头部的错误部位。 即使是最伟大的拳击手，在使用赤手空拳进行攻击时，也需要格外小心。 当然，这个问题很容易解决，拳击手可以学习使用掌击或者肘击，只需要对技术进行一些调整就能解决这个问题。 所以，你会发现，竞技格斗的体能训练、心理训练和技术训练，再加上一些技术调整和战术调整，就能让你在街头格斗中占据优势，无论你身处何地。 我观察过很多自卫的方法，最 ineffective 的就是那些只停留在理论层面，只进行一些简单 drills 的练习，没有实战对抗经验的人。 而最有效的自卫方法，就是那些以实战对抗为主，并且根据实际情况进行技术和战术调整的竞技格斗。 比如，有些人会说，武器在街头格斗中能够改变一切。 这话没错，但这同样适用于竞技格斗。 那些最厉害的刀术高手，往往都来自于击剑领域，因为击剑是一项竞技运动，它包含了实战对抗的环节。 当然，纯粹的击剑技术并不适用于街头格斗，你需要根据实际情况进行调整。 但你从击剑运动中获得的反应速度、耐力和灵活性，都能帮助你在街头格斗中占据优势。 所以，在选择自卫的格斗术时，你不需要纠结于哪种风格更厉害，比如跆拳道、空手道或者功夫。 你只需要关注一个问题：它是否是竞技格斗？ 如果你选择了一项竞技格斗，并且已经掌握了它，那么你就可以开始思考，如何根据街头格斗的需要进行技术和战术调整，让它变得更加有效。 这就是我一直以来的建议。

Lex: So let me zoom in on a very particular aspect of “street fighting,” where, uh, with all due respect, I disagree with Mr. Joe Rogan and Georges St-Pierre, which is, uh, the suit and tie situation. Now to criticize GSP,

莱克斯: 我们来谈谈“街头格斗”中一个非常具体的细节，也就是穿西装打领带的情况。 恕我直言，我不同意乔·罗根和乔治·圣皮埃尔的观点。 说到乔治·圣皮埃尔，

John: Yeah.

约翰: 嗯。

Lex: Yeah. He’s very accomplished and everything, but to criticize him for a bit. He made claims about how dangerous the tie is in a “street fighting” situation without ever having used them in a fighting situation, so he made, sort of, broad proclamations without understanding the fundamentals. So, I thought I would go to somebody who uh, thinks in systems. What do you think? Is it um, is it dangerous to wear a tie or not in a grappling situation versus, all the, other way, we were talking about in a “street fight” here? Because there was nothing strange to wear a tie in a grappling competition, he would be, it would be, uh,

莱克斯: 没错，他非常厉害，但我要稍微批评他一下。 他曾经说过，在“街头格斗”中，领带非常危险，但他从来没有在实战中验证过这个说法，所以他的结论有点过于草率，缺乏对基本原理的理解。 所以，我想请教你，一个擅长系统性思考的人，你是怎么看的？ 在格斗中，或者说在“街头格斗”中，戴领带是否危险？ 因为在格斗比赛中，戴领带很正常，没有人会觉得奇怪。

John: Yes.

约翰: 是的。

Lex: In a street fight situation, okay? Joe Rogan thinks it is like the most dangerous, it’s like it becomes your weakest point if you wear a tie, because it’s very easy to choke. Georges St-Pierre seemed to have agreed with that, also. George added that you can grab the tie and pull the person down to a knee.

莱克斯: 在“街头格斗”中，乔·罗根认为领带是最危险的东西，因为它很容易被用来勒住脖子，会成为你的弱点。 乔治·圣皮埃尔似乎也同意他的观点，他还补充说，你可以抓住对方的领带，把他拉到地上。

John: Yeah, this is, this is the go-to. Joe Rogan will go for the choke, Georges St-Pierre will go for the tie to the knee, which I was saying is ridiculous.

约翰: 没错，这就是他们的惯用伎俩。 乔·罗根会选择勒颈，乔治·圣皮埃尔会选择拉到地上，我刚才说这很荒谬。

Lex: So, what do you think?

莱克斯: 那么，你认为呢？

John: Okay. Um, first off, I actually can speak with experience on this because they worked as a bouncer for over a decade, and most of the clubs I worked at did not require a suit and time, but occasionally, they did, okay? Let’s first differentiate between the kinds of threats when you wear a tie. Yes, if you wear a tie, if there is going to be a threat, by far the more important threat is not strangulation, okay? Being strangled by your tie is possible, but it is a poor choice. There are many other ways to strangle people that are far more efficient. If I strangle with you, you’re, by your tie I’m literally in front of you. Um, that means, as I go to apply the stranglehold, I can easily be eye-gouged at, sir. Uh, sir, if you’re going to strangle people on the street, do it from behind, and there’s just much better ways to do it than that.

约翰: 好吧，我在这方面有一些经验之谈，因为我做了十多年的保镖，我工作过的大多数酒吧都不需要穿西装打领带，但偶尔也会有这样的要求。 我们先来分析一下，当你戴着领带的时候，会面临哪些威胁。 的确，领带可以用来勒住你的脖子，但这不是最主要的威胁，因为还有很多其他更有效的方法可以勒住人。 如果你想勒住我的脖子，你就必须站在我的面前，这样我就可以轻易地攻击你的眼睛。 如果你想在街头勒住别人，你应该从背后下手，而且还有很多比领带更有效的工具。

Lex: Hear that, Joe Rogan?

莱克斯: 乔·罗根，你听到了吗？

John: With regards to the snap-down question, that’s, that is more of a problem. I always recommend, if you are going to work as a bouncer with a tie, wear a clip-on tie, so it just comes off immediately. If you don’t like clip-ons, then you can use a bow tie. I used to work for years with, uh, in hip-hop clubs, with, uh, members of the Nation of Islam security team that were known, they had various factions, but the one I worked with, with the X-Men, and they would always wear bow ties, which, of course, can’t be grabbed. Now, um, the bow tie was, that was a recognizable part of their brand, a security guard, so everyone knew that that’s what they were. If, if I wore a bow tie in a security situation people would probably think that I was some kind of nancy boy and, um, uh, and want to fight with me, so I couldn’t wear one. So I would always wear a tie, which you should become familiar with, Mr. Freeman, that’s the Texas bolo tie, which is a kind of shoestring tie, which is very, very thin, almost like shoestring, and rather short, and just has a simple pendant in the middle. Um, this is perfect if you need to wear a tie in a situation where you believe there’s a high likelihood of you being grabbed, because it can’t be grabbed.

约翰: 至于被抓住领带拉倒的问题，这的确是一个更大的问题。 我建议，如果你在做保镖的时候需要戴领带，那就戴一个夹式领带，这样很容易就能挣脱。 如果你不喜欢夹式领带，那就戴一个领结。 我曾经在嘻哈俱乐部工作过很多年，和“伊斯兰民族”安全团队的成员一起工作，他们有不同的派别，和我一起工作的是“X 战警”，他们总是戴着领结，因为领结是抓不住的。 领结是他们身份的象征，每个人都知道他们是谁。 但如果我戴着领结去做保镖，别人可能会觉得我很软弱，想要找我麻烦，所以我不能戴领结。 我会戴一种叫做“德州 bolo 领带”的领带，你应该见过，弗里德曼先生。 它是一种很细的领带，就像鞋带一样，而且很短，中间有一个简单的吊坠。 如果你在工作中需要戴领带，而且担心会被对手抓住，那这种领带就是最好的选择，因为它很难被抓住。

Lex: Yeah. There’s nothing to grab, it’s literally like string. Like, if, if you pulled it, it would just slip through your hand. Um, that tie that you’re wearing now, that would give me tremendous control of your head, and I could easily turn into a hockey fight situation where your head was being pulled down, out of balance, and you would have a hard time recovering.

莱克斯: 没错，它就像一根绳子，根本抓不住，你一拉它，它就会从你手里滑出去。 而你现在戴的这条领带，很容易就能让我控制住你的头部，就像曲棍球比赛中的打架一样，我会抓住你的领带，把你的头拉下来，让你失去平衡，你很难再站起来。

John: So, strangulation, not really a problem. Getting pulled down, possible problem. Solutions: clip-on tie, bow tie, or if you don’t want to look like a nancy boy, wear a bolo tie.

约翰: 所以，被领带勒住脖子不是什么大问题，但被抓住领带拉倒是需要注意的问题。 解决方案是：戴夹式领带、领结，或者，如果你不想被人看扁，那就戴 bolo 领带。

Lex: Beautiful. So you disagree with Joe Rogan and agree with Georges St-Pierre. I love it. I feel like, with, I feel like this is an instruction we put together here on, uh, on “street fighting,” it and the tie. Speaking of Joe Rogan, let me ask, um, the following question. He’s, uh, currently doing a podcast with Gordon Ryan, and probably going to try to convince him and you, as he’s already been doing, to move to Austin. What are the chances of the Danaher Death Squad coming in to Austin and opening a school in Austin, and making Austin home, so I can attend the classes there?

莱克斯: 太棒了，所以你不同意乔·罗根的观点，而同意乔治·圣皮埃尔的观点。 我喜欢你的分析，我们好像总结出了一套关于“街头格斗”中如何使用领带的教程。 说到乔·罗根，我想问你一个问题。 他最近在和戈登·瑞恩一起做播客，而且他一直在试图说服你和戈登搬到奥斯汀去。 “丹纳赫尔死亡战队”有没有可能搬到奥斯汀，在那里开设一家道馆，并且在那里定居？ 这样我就可以去参加你们的课程了。

John: I would definitely have to think about that. Um, I do know that I personally love New York,

约翰: 我需要认真考虑一下。 我个人很喜欢纽约，

Lex: Yes.

莱克斯: 我知道。

John: But every single person in the squad despised New York and wanted to leave for a long time.

约翰: 但“战队”里的每个人都讨厌纽约，而且早就想离开那里了。

Lex: So um, uh, what was the nature of your love for New York, by the way?

莱克斯: 那么，你为什么喜欢纽约？

John: Uh, it was truly an international city. Like, I’m a big believer in the idea of, of breadth of experience, and if you want breadth of experience, usually requires extensive travel. But training people means you have to be in a fixed location, working according to a schedule, and that pushed those two, push in different directions. New York was the compromise, where everyone from around the world came there. So you had breadth of experience of world culture but, at the same time, you had a fixed location so you could run a training program that produced world champions. So it was the ideal compromise. Um, it was a fascinating thing to teach classes of over 120 people, where literally the entire world was represented on the map, and go outside and see the same thing. It was truly, uh, the world’s leading international city. It was, um, it was like the world’s unofficial capital, a fascinating place to live. So, um, I loved it, but the squad hated it. For them, it was like an expensive, um, things they never actually lived in Manhattan, they always lived in New Jersey, or Long Island, had to commute in, so all they ever saw was the bridges and the tunnels, the expensive daily parking fee, so they only saw the worst of New York, and, um, despite my pleas for them to move into Manhattan, they never did. And so, they, they hated it. They, because when all you see of New York is the bridges and the tunnels and,

约翰: 因为它是一个真正的国际化都市。 我非常重视经验的广度，而要想获得丰富的经验，通常需要去各地旅行。 但训练需要在一个固定的地方进行，而且要按照计划来进行，这两种需求是相互矛盾的。 而纽约是一个完美的折中方案，世界各地的人都会来这里，你可以在一个地方体验到世界各地的文化，同时，你也可以在这里建立一个固定的训练基地，培养世界冠军。 所以，纽约是一个理想的选择。 我很喜欢在那里给 120 多人上课，我的学生来自世界各地，走在大街上，你也能看到来自世界各地的人，纽约是世界上最国际化的城市，它就像世界的非官方首都，是一个充满魅力的地方。 所以我喜欢纽约，但“战队”的成员们却讨厌它。 因为对他们来说，纽约的消费太高了，他们没有住在曼哈顿，而是住在新泽西或者长岛，每天都要通勤到曼哈顿来训练，所以他们看到的只有桥梁、隧道和昂贵的停车费，他们只看到了纽约最糟糕的一面。 虽然我曾经劝过他们搬到曼哈顿，但他们始终不愿意。 所以，他们很讨厌纽约。 因为，当你对纽约的印象只有桥梁、隧道和，

Lex: Yeah, the, the parking garage, that’s not a pleasant thing.

莱克斯: 没错，停车场，可不是什么令人愉快的回忆。

John: So, um, I understand where they’re coming from. So uh, then when COVID broke out, um, uh, they wanted to, to move to Puerto Rico and, uh, and, and work there. Now, Puerto Rico is a beautiful alternative to New York. It’s, in many ways, has many advantages over New York. It’s physically beautiful, the, the, uh, the people are wonderful, and, um, uh, it’s, it’s a, it’s a just a wonderful place to spend time. Um,

约翰: 所以，我理解他们的感受。 后来，疫情爆发了，他们想要搬到波多黎各去生活和工作。 波多黎各是一个很好的选择，它在很多方面都比纽约更有优势。 那里的自然环境很美，人们很友好，是一个非常适合生活的地方。

Lex: Freedom, low taxes, all those kinds of things that’s, Puerto Rico stands for.

莱克斯: 自由、低税收，这些都是波多黎各的优势。

John: Yeah. It’s, uh, Texas, on the other hand, I know everyone, in the compromise, right? Texas is a compromise between those two, actually. I must say that everyone on the squad, myself included, loves Texas. I that there’s no question about that. I know, um, Gordon loves it, uh, Garry, uh, Craig, Nicky, that, everyone who comes here just loves Texas. This, that is incontestable. Um, of course, in Texas, there’s, uh, many great cities. Austin has, uh, uh, always been one of my favorites. I’ve, I love Dallas, I love Austin, um, and, uh, it has the advantages of better infrastructure as a place to train. It has a much higher population density, so that you could get a larger number of prospective students and form a larger squad. Um, it would, uh, it would definitely be a fantastic place to, to open up a gym. Um, I couldn’t give an answer off the top of my head, it would be a big move if we did make that move. Uh, but the, the basic idea would be very agreeable to everyone on the team, I will say that.

约翰: 没错。 德克萨斯州是一个很好的折中方案，它介于纽约和波多黎各之间。 我必须说，“战队”里的每个人，包括我自己，都喜欢德克萨斯州，这一点毫无疑问。 我知道，戈登、加里、克雷格、尼基，所有来过这里的人，都喜欢德克萨斯州，这是毋庸置疑的。 当然，德克萨斯州有很多很棒的城市，奥斯汀一直是我最喜欢的城市之一，我还喜欢达拉斯。 作为训练基地，德克萨斯州的基础设施更好，人口密度也更高，所以我们可以招募到更多学生，组建一个更大的“战队”。 它绝对是一个开设道馆的好地方。 我现在还不能马上给出答案，因为搬家是一个很大的决定。 但我可以肯定地说，这个想法得到了“战队”所有成员的支持。

Lex: Well, I’ll just have to call my Russian connections to threaten the right kind of people, and, uh, I definitely would love, the way you approach training, the way you approach the martial arts is, uh, is something that’s, uh, that I deeply admire as a scholar of these arts. So, it would be amazing if you do come here, but either way, it’d be amazing to train together. Let me ask a big, ridiculous question. What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing? We talked about, at the beginning of the conversation, about death and the fear of it. The other big question we ask about life is its meaning. Do you think there’s a meaning to our existence here on this little spinning ball that’s, uh, you, you’ve thrown some, some powerful questions.

莱克斯: 看来我得动用我在俄罗斯的关系，去“威胁”一下那些能够做决定的人了。 我非常欣赏你的训练方法和对格斗的理解，你是一位真正的武学大师，我对你充满了敬佩。 所以，如果你真的能来奥斯汀，那真是太好了，无论如何，我们都要找机会一起训练。 我想问你一个比较宏大的问题，也许这个问题听起来很 ridiculous。 你认为这一切的意义是什么？ 我们在节目开始的时候谈到了死亡和对死亡的恐惧，而另一个关于人生的重大问题是，生命的意义是什么？ 你认为我们在这个小小的星球上的存在，有什么意义吗？ 你问的这些问题都很有深度。

John: That’s the most powerful. Um, for most of human existence, the meaning of life was very, very simple: survival. The only thing that humans cared about was just surviving, because it was so damn difficult for the early years of human existence on this Earth. If you look at ourselves as biological agents, everything about our body is set up for one mission, and that is survival. Every reflex we have, every element of our, uh, structure, is just built up on the battle to survive. And then humans did something remarkable. They elevated themselves through the use of technology and social structure to the top of the food chain. So that they went from extraordinary, extremely vulnerable. If you take a, a naked human being, alone, and put them in the Serengeti plains in Africa, they’re in some deep shit, okay? If you look at a human being as a survival organism, just by itself, naked, they are among the most feeble at that task in the entire animal kingdom. You compare us with predatory animals, we are weak and soft, and easily killed. But if you take that same human, and put them in a group and you give him basic technology, steel: a spear, a knife, he goes from the bottom of the food chain to pretty much at the top. And so, humanity found itself in a crisis that emerged out of its own success. For most of its history, their only interest was the battle to survive, and they, they did it. I don’t know how they did it, but they did it. They got through ice ages, droughts, famines, disease, everything, and they found a way to get to the top of the food chain. And that’s where it all got interesting because an organism whose only interest was in survival, yeah, had, for the first time in their history, a more or less guaranteed survival. And so, the big question now is, “Now what?” We survived, there’s no more danger. The average human being finds himself in a world now where there’s almost zero danger from predatory animals, where getting a meal is the easiest thing ever, where getting to and from work is not problematic at all, where the majority of infectious diseases, medical complaints, can be resolved in a hospital fairly easily. And so, they start casting their mind around, “Okay. What do I do now?” And so, the minute mankind’s existence became more or less guaranteed, the problems shift from survival to meaning, and we found ourselves grappling with a whole new issue that had never occurred to our ancient forefathers, but which now becomes one of the centerpieces of our modern lives. I mean, when you look at your own life, when you look back, you think, “I did a hell of a good job.” You know, uh, Hunter S. Thompson has this line that I often think about, that, “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, ‘Wow! What a ride!’” That’s, which is the complete opposite of survival.

约翰: 这是一个非常重要的问题。 在人类历史的大部分时间里，生命的意义很简单，就是生存。 因为在远古时代，生存是一件极其困难的事情，所以人们唯一关心的事情就是如何活下去。 如果你把人类看作是一个生物体，那么我们身体的每一个部分，每一个本能反应，都是为了生存而设计的。 后来，人类利用科技和社会结构，让自己成为了食物链顶端的生物。 原始人类非常脆弱，如果把一个赤身裸体的人扔到非洲大草原上，他必死无疑。 从生存能力来说，人类在动物界中属于最弱的。 和那些凶猛的野兽相比，我们弱不禁风，很容易被杀死。 但是，如果人类组成群体，并且掌握了简单的工具，比如用钢铁制造的长矛和刀，那么他们就能从食物链的底层跃升到顶端。 于是，人类迎来了一个由成功带来的危机。 在漫长的历史中，人类唯一的目标就是生存，他们成功地做到了这一点。 我不知道他们是如何做到的，但他们确实战胜了冰河世纪、干旱、饥荒、疾病等等，最终登上了食物链的顶端。 然后，问题就来了，因为对于一个只关心生存的生物来说，当生存不再是问题的时候，他们该怎么办？ 我们已经生存下来了，不再面临生存的威胁。 现在，普通人的生活中几乎没有来自野兽的威胁，食物唾手可得，交通便利，大多数疾病都可以在医院里得到有效的治疗。 所以，人们开始思考：“接下来我该做什么？” 当人类的生存得到保障之后，问题就从“如何生存”变成了“生命的意义是什么”。 我们开始 grappling 一个全新的问题，一个我们的祖先从未遇到过的问题，但它却成为了现代人生活中最重要的一个问题。 当你回顾自己的人生时，你会想：“我做得还不错”。 亨特·S·汤普森曾经说过一句话，我经常想起这句话：“人生不应该是安全地抵达坟墓，而是要在浓烟滚滚中，侧身滑进坟墓，筋疲力尽，伤痕累累，并大声喊道：‘哇！ 这真是一段精彩的旅程！’” 这与“生存”的理念完全相反。

Lex: Well, not complete opposite of survival, but basically embracing danger, embracing risk, going big, just living life to the fullest. So, within that context, what would make you proud of a life well lived? When you look back, you, John Danaher, looking back at your life,

莱克斯: 它不是与“生存”完全对立，而是说，要拥抱危险，拥抱风险，去做一些有意义的事情，活出精彩的人生。 所以，在这样的背景下，什么样的人生会让你感到自豪？ 当你回首往事的时候，约翰·丹纳赫尔，你回首自己的人生的时候，

John: First, I will address that question, but let’s first look at why Hunter S. Thompson could say that, because his life was more or less guaranteed and safe. If you look at animals in the animal kingdom, the pattern of their life is very simple: they take the least risk possible to secure their existence. Lions are powerful creatures, but when they go hunting, they typically go for the weakest animals they can kill in order to eat, because they don’t want to take the risk of injuring themselves, knowing that if they do, they die. So, the brute reality is, the only people who can talk about having casual danger in their lives are those whose lives are guaranteed.

约翰: 我一会儿会回答你的问题，但我们先来分析一下，为什么亨特·S·汤普森敢于那样说，因为他的人生是安全无忧的。 如果你观察一下动物世界，你会发现，动物的生活模式很简单：它们会尽量避免风险，以确保自己的生存。 狮子很强大，但它们在捕猎的时候，通常会选择最弱小的猎物，因为它们不想冒险受伤，因为一旦受伤，就可能死亡。 所以，残酷的现实是，只有那些生活无忧的人，才会去追求冒险和刺激。

Lex: And a fascinating small tangent, Hunter S. Thompson took his own life. So that’s, that seems like a deeply human thing to, suicide.

莱克斯: 说来也巧，亨特·S·汤普森最后选择了自杀。 这似乎是人类才会做的事情。

John: Yes.

约翰: 没错。

Lex: Um, that’s a fascinating question in itself, if you look at the, the number of suicides per year, it’s a shocking, shocking statistic that gets almost no recognition. And yes, uniquely human. You don’t, very, very few animals you see killing themselves, because their whole thing is just survival. And that humans, paradoxically, when survival is more or less guaranteed, are killing themselves in vast numbers. It’s usually linked back to the idea of meaning because it’s so hard, it’s, it was hard to win the battle for survival, but it’s 10 times harder to win the battle for meaning.

莱克斯: 这本身就是一个值得思考的问题。 每年自杀的人数之多，是一个令人震惊的数字，但很少有人关注这个问题。 这确实是人类独有的现象。 你很少看到动物自杀，因为它们的目标只是为了生存。 而人类，却在生存得到保障之后，选择结束自己的生命，这很 paradoxical。 这通常与“意义”有关，因为生存之战虽然残酷，但意义之战更加艰难。 赢得意义之战的难度，是赢得生存之战的十倍。

John: Um, when I think about it, first off, I’ll say right from the back there’s never going to be an agreed-upon sense of meaning. There’s, as I said, there was one thing that our, our physical bodies agreed upon and which is hardwired, biologically, into us, and that’s survival. But once we got to a more or less guaranteed survival then all bets were off, at that point. You just have to start listing your own criteria and what one person will describe as a meaningful life, another person will decry as is meaningless, or wasted, um, there’s something terrible about the idea that we’re sitting around, you know, waiting for meaning to show up on our doorstep. But what I find, the best people do is they take charge of it, and they look at their lives and, in a form of authorship where they see their life as a tale to be written, and they do their best to write that tale and put as much control over the the direction of this story as they can. In the end, we all have to just try and write our own story. We all have our own interests. I try to bring in the sense that even though I’m an atheist, I don’t believe that we go on to to live after this. I’m i, I believe that there’s a possibility of a god and afterlife. I don’t say it’s impossible, but in order for me to believe that, they exist, I’d have to see better evidence than I see currently. Nonetheless, I do believe that there is a great value in the idea of living for something bigger than yourself. The moment you see yourself as the be-all and end-all of your existence, you’re in for a meaningless life, and nothing will ever satisfy you. You can have all the money in the world, you can have all the power in the world, you’ll be empty inside. I do believe that humans have a deep and abiding need to follow the interests of a group bigger than themselves as an individual. Is it ideal? No. Is it an answer to the meaning of life? Nope. Because eventually, that group will itself die out. So, there’s a sense in which it that just plays a kind of delaying game. But I do believe that in order to live a happy life, meaning as a central part of that, and the deepest sense of meaning, not a fully complete answer, but a better answer than most people give, is to, to find something which, hopefully, does very little harm to the people around you and mostly benefits them, which enables you to become part of a community and to live, as I said, for something larger than than you as an individual.

约翰: 这是一个非常深刻的问题。 在人类历史的大部分时间里，生命的意义非常简单，就是生存。 因为我们的身体结构和生物本能都是为了生存而设计的。 但当人类通过科技和社会结构，让自己不再为生存发愁的时候，所有的一切都改变了。 每个人对“有意义的人生”的定义都不一样，有些人认为有意义的事情，在另一些人看来可能毫无意义，甚至是浪费时间。 我们不能 passive 地等待着“意义”自己找上门来，而是要主动去创造它。 那些最优秀的人，他们会掌控自己的人生，他们把人生看作是一个故事，并且尽力去书写这个故事，掌控故事的发展方向。 最终，我们都要去书写属于自己的故事。 我们每个人都有自己的兴趣爱好。 虽然我是一个无神论者，不相信人死后还有灵魂，但我相信，人是有可能拥有灵魂和来世的。 我并不是说这种可能性不存在，只是我还没有看到足够的证据。 我始终相信，为比自己更伟大的事业而活，是一件非常有价值的事情。 如果你只关注自己，那么你的人生将毫无意义，你永远无法得到满足。 即使你拥有了世界上所有的财富和权力，你的内心依然会感到空虚。 我相信，人类有一种根深蒂固的需求，那就是追随比自己更伟大的目标，为一个更大的群体服务。 这是否是理想的人生？ 我不知道。 这是否能够解答生命的意义？ 我也不知道。 因为最终，这个群体也会消亡。 所以，从某种意义上来说，这只是一个拖延时间的策略。 但我相信，要想获得幸福，就必须找到生命的意义，而最 profound 的意义，也许不是一个完整的答案，但它比大多数人给出的答案都要好，那就是，去做一些对他人有益的事情，尽量减少对他人的伤害，融入到一个群体中，为一个比自己更伟大的目标而活。

Lex: If there is such a thing as the perfect conversation, it would be a conversation on death, meaning, and robots, with the great John Don, John. I’ve been a fan, it’s a huge honor that you would waste all your time today. Thank you so much for talking today.

莱克斯: 如果说存在完美的对话，那一定是关于死亡、意义和机器人的对话，而且对话的对象是伟大的约翰·丹纳赫尔。 我一直都是你的粉丝，今天能够和你聊这么长时间，我感到非常荣幸。 非常感谢你今天的分享。

John: My pleasure. Thank you.

约翰: 这是我的荣幸，谢谢你。

Lex: Thanks. Thanks for listening to this conversation with John Danaher. And thank you to Onnit, SimplySafe, Indeed, and Linode. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. And now, let me leave you some words from John Danaher himself: “In fighting and competition, the objective is victory. In training, the objective is skill development. Do not confuse them.” As such, “One of the best ways to train is to identify the strengths of your various partners and regularly expose yourself to those strengths.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

莱克斯: 谢谢。 感谢大家收听本期节目，我是莱克斯·弗里德曼。 感谢我们的赞助商：Onnit、SimplySafe、Indeed 和 Linode，大家可以在节目描述中找到他们的信息。 最后，让我们用约翰·丹纳赫尔的一段话来结束今天的节目：“在格斗和比赛中，目标是赢得胜利；而在训练中，目标是提升技术水平，不要混淆这两者。” 所以，“最好的训练方式之一，就是找到不同训练伙伴的优势，并让自己经常性地面对这些优势。” 感谢大家的收听，我们下期节目再见。

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